This is a theory I've had for quite a while now, but last night after I had my first Official Isshin-Ryu class, and after working one-on-one with the head instructor for quite a while, I'm even more convinced. Now, here's some of the facts I had already known about: *Isshin-Ryu and Wing Chun both use a vertical fist and when they punch, do not extend the elbow all the way. *They both use the principle of the Centerline *Both of their basic stances are about shoulder-width with bent knees, for solidity. *Isshin-Ryu kobudo consists of the Bo, Sai, and Tonfa. The Sai and Bo could be used to a similar manner to Butterfly swords and the Long Pole, both found in WC. Now, some facts were revealed last night that I had not previously been aware of. Some wrist grab defenses I learned were very similar to those I've seen in a Wing Chun book I own. The instructor explained to me that Okinawan Karate is derived from a mixture of Okinawan Te and Chinese Kung Fu, and we all know Wing Chun is Kung Fu. Therefore some Wing Chun techniques could be found in either/or the Shorin and Goju Ryus which I know almost nothing about. He also explained that some Isshin-Ryu Katas contain similar movements to Wing Chun. But what really convinced me was when he instructed me to throw a punch at him. I aimed it at his head and threw it. I no more moved my arm than he swatted it away (In a blindingly fast movement frighteningly similar to one in WC) and landed a knife-hand an inch from my neck. (He did something similar when he showed me a wrist grab defense) I didn't even know what had happened until it was over and he withdrew his hand. Now, I'm not a slow guy. I've killed flies with my bare hands, but holy crap.... I'd go so far as to say he was "Bruce-Lee-Fast". But anyways, back to the point. I'm now legitimately convinced that Isshin-Ryu contains Wing Chun techniques. I'm definitely going to be doing a LOT more research on this stuff. As far as I know, WC practitioners could have come to O)kinawa and tought the Okinawans, and that could have been passed down to either Goju or Shorin, or both, and Shimabuku combined those 2 styles into Isshin-Ryu and that's why I'm having this theory. If any of you have a similar theory but are more knowledgeable than me, please contribute. Kudos.
I just concussed myself with a facepalm....thanks a bunch! In all seriousness don't dwell on this too much. Unless you grow and extra arm somewhere you can only move the body certain ways so there is always crossover.
You wear Tapout and Affliction clothing don't you? Also, you're 16 and are just beginning your first MA right? You'll find a striking resemblance of techniques in any martial arts that are similar to others. What works, just simply works. You're going to be easily impressed for a good while. It's ok though, part of the journey. Keep asking questions and theorizing, just make sure you find out if your'e wrong or not and don't go on believing everything you think up.
With the killing flies with your bare hands, wow! Is there any type of conditioning exercises you could recommend ? Modified makawari ?Or is it a case of tough it out for a while and my hands will adapt? Thanks
I think the CMA with the closest links to Karate is Fujian White Crane. But Truth is there is massive crossover amongst KF styles, particularly when from a similar region. Sometimes you here about KF style being categorized between Southern and Northern. So in this case I think the roots of karate can be seen in the Southern KF styles. I think there's a lot of similarity between White Crane and WC, you mention the stance -- I beleive it's known as 'the goat stance'. You'll see this in WC, white crane and in Karate - Sanchin, I think it's known as in Karate. I've never heard of WC being taught in Japan, but I do recollect a story regarding White Crane. I even remember a video posted of some Goju practitioners meeting and training/ demonstrating with some White Crane Kung Fu guys and showing the crossover in the arts, it was quite clear. I don't know any specifics regards Isshin Ryu though. Maybe someone with more info will chime in.
Yeah, the Fujian systems such as Baihe, Taizhu and Huzun are the Chinese roots of karate, no Wing Chun.
@philoraptor- Lets keep in mind NotaMAs age and experience level before anyone starts poking fun. How knowledgeable were you at 16 or with a whole week of training?
This. I personally think the whole "You can't have a valid opinion because you have no experience" thing is BS. Me playing at the thought that Isshin-Ryu has a bit of Wing Chun is no different than anyone else believing that you can kill someone by magically poking their solar plexus.
Hey you, you're not allowed to acknowledge and enforce your age and current lack of experience! You let others do that for you! That makes you look like you're somewhat aware and open to suggestions. I like thinking that you think you know it all, makes me feel like I'm older and more mature then you and you're robbing me of that :woo:
Lol. A simple theory that could have been answered with "Yes this is somewhat correct because...." or "No, this is not correct because...." is somehow slowly turning into a huge discussion about how Novices evidently can't have a valid opinion and can't make logical and unbiased decisions on the martial arts because of their inexperience... At least I think that's what's going on. (I personally resent that theory.)
Novices can have opinions but have to realize that everyone else has already had them and it is now on the 20th or so time around I saw nothing that was meant in anything other than good humor
I remember feeling exactly the same way when I first joined MAP when I was 16 or 17 and getting into MA myself! I got corrected A LOT. One thing I learned that helps communicate an idea with a lack of flack from other people is to post a theory or idea in a way that doesn't hold a strong opinion. For example, your opening post leaves little question to your statement that "Isshinryu Karate has wing chun in it!" vs. saying something along the lines of, "I've noticed some things in my Isshinryu class that seems a lot like wing chun, does anybody have experience in this area that would know if some of the syllabus was inspired by wing chun?" It's all in the word play : P.
I'll try and be thorough. Karate has routes in Kung fu, but to my knowledge (and the knowledge of anybody I have talked to, and the research I have done) not wing chun. The main influences are shaolin Kung fu, and white crane Kung fu. The verticals punches that you have referenced are not unique to wing chun, or for that matter Kung fu. Many of the techniques that might look like wing chun are really white crane Kung fu. This style of Kung fu looks like it sounds. It's fast, and has an air of lightness about it for lack of a better description. The narrow stance you reference is in almost every martial art. Knees are always slightly bent for stability, and for safety. Your instructors speed was surprising to you because you likely haven't every seen somebody with twenty plus years of training in action. Speed is a byproduct of skill and fitness.
I always have been one to jump on the bandwagon after it's gone one too many miles. Lol. At first I noticed that some things were similar so I sorta just jumped to conclusions there.
Thanks for all the answers. I've also done a bit more research and found out that Wing Chun does have some parenthood in Crane Kung Fu, and so does Karate, therefore I think that might be where I'm getting myself confused. Not 100% sure though.
