Capoeira comes from Silat?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Jefferson Pierce, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    1542/5000
    I could not translate and therefore understand some of the terms you used
    Two basic characteristics of capoeira are the rotating kicks and mainly the kicks driven with the use of the hands as support, rotating kicks are common in the Asian arts, but the others are much rarer to see, they are more present in styles like silat and muay boran. These similarities arouse the curiosity of the people, I am not the only one to notice similarities between silat and capoeira and to ask about some possible connection. The diamanga shows many rotating kicks like TKD, but it also shows the "ground moves", but I know that we have a unique "safe" image of its old form, because as you have shown, what we see in the videos may not be authentic, Modern influence as in the case of moringue.
    Moraingy of Madagascar is its origin and does not remember capoeira, it is a like a simple kickboxing, that was taken to nearby islands like Reunion, where as supposedly occurred like the diamanga that was about to disappear before being revitalized, this happened by means of a Savate practitioner in the 90's and it is very important to remember that Brazilian capoeiristas were in Reunion in the 80's. Today the moringue only bears the name of the old practice, but it is in fact a version of capoeira.
    I entered this forum hoping to get more data on the old practice of diamanga, to be able to prove if this is indeed as alleged.
    I sent an email to the group "diamanga TKD" as suggested by Dead Pool and I am waiting for answers
     
  2. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Exactly. Sadly I see too many people saying they 'incorporate silat moves', or 'combine silat in their system'. It's very hard to mention if a specific kick comes from a specific system. Is a lowkick originating from Muay Thai? Does a punch that you snap back come from boxing? If you incorporate tactics or strategy of a system, that is a bit different. Silat, like many arts is a system, a full system that is. Not just some nice sweeps, or sitting on the ground and kick a bit, or a capoeira-ish style kick that finds it's way in Silat or the other way around. Same goes for capoeira. The problem is that their are loadsssssss of people who only have bits 'n pieces of a system and start combining to fill up the holes they find. A system is a system because they all link together, not because they are just a random collection of techniques.

    People are too hung up on separate techniques and want to link them to a certain system. Specially nowadays where everyone can 'borrow' techniques from youtube and make it their own.
     
  3. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    Another explanation for similarities of capoeira with Asian arts.
    Could it be influence of karate and Japanese jiu-jitsu?
    When regional capoeira was created, traditional capoeira was renamed capoeira angola (a reference to the n'golo of Angola), Mestre Bimba judged that capoeira had weakened and sought to perfect it. Something very important in this process is almost forgotten of the public, the presence of a man named Sisnando (sometimes spelled Cisnando).
    José Sisnando Lima was a young medical student and farm owner before meeting Manoel dos Reis Machado (Mestre Bimba), he brought to his estates some Japanese settlers and learned martial arts with them as well. He learned Jiu-jitsu with Takeo Yano, with Takamatsu, 5th dan from Shotokan and 2nd from Kodokan, practiced and studied karate. One of his Japanese settlers started him in Kendo and Bojitsu. His Japanese team, from TakuDai, included Saito Masahiro, 2nd dan by Kodokan and 1st dan by Shotokan, Sisnando also knew boxing and Greco-Roman fight, thanks to him Mestre Bimba had access to new knowledge for the Capoeira Regional. It is important to emphasize that the decision whether or not to include blows was exclusively for Mestre Bimba. Sisnando was known as "The Fundamental Stone of Capoeira Regional", being very important in her organization.
    Does anyone with a good understanding in the martial arts mentioned recognize the true origin of the movements that I, as a layman, believe to be related to silat?

    Capoeira Angola

    N'golo


    sources
    Google Tradutor
    Google Tradutor
    Google Tradutor
     
  4. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Perhaps it has similarities with some styles of silat. For instance, this is silat:



    but this is silat as well:



    One is a more twisty athletic style (more similar with capoeira), whilst the second one is more straight to the point and puts it's finesse in different things.
    To be honest, i'm not sure that the first style is pure silat, but let's say for the sake of discussion that it is.
     
  5. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    Do you know the origin of the style of each video?
    Silat is a comprehensive denomination (kali is sometimes referred to as felipino silat)
    I think silat melayu (from Malaysia) is more acrobatic than Indonesia, but I do not always know how to differentiate them. If the first style is not pure, you would say that it is mixed with what?

    Reply from Diamanga TKD

    "Je fais des recherches sur « Diamanga » pour ce qu'elle a fait est un art « naturel » Madagascar cette résurgence.
    Est-ce exact? c'est en fait un mélange TKD et Moringue de Réunion?
    Il est juste un style TKD?
    S'il vous plaît voulu comprendre ces choses!"

    "Hello,
    Diamanga is a real ancestral martial arts of Madagascar, mostly in the region of Imerina (the capital). As it was a traditional practice , the transmission of the knowledge was made orally. It seems that Diamanga was imported in Angola and Brasil during the market of slavery. The Moringy is another Madagascar martial arts imported later in La Reunion then they modified it in Moringue. The common point between TKD and Diamanga is the fact that we use at 90% feet to hit the opponents.
    Hope it helps you."

    I found some inconclusive, apparently they use, the name TKD by marketing, did not explain if mixed with diamanga or if diamanga looks like it by naturalness, I sent a new message asking for information.
    In their view, n'golo would originate in Madagascar as well, I'm not sure.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The Slave trade does link Madagascar to Brazil and Indonesia. Indonesia from the 17th Century and Brazil from the 18th Century (though the bulk of trade occurred in the 19th Century).

    Impossible to say who influenced who though. Maybe some forms of Silat just picked up a few tricks from Diamanga? Maybe it's just coincidence? I think that training methods are far more telling than particular techniques for hinting at shared roots.

    Southeast Africa

    Two centuries of slavery on Indonesian soil
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    Jefferson, do you yourself train in any martial art?
     
  8. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    I do not practice any martial art, I'm just trying to understand the origin of capoeira, I looked for the forum to have a wider view, talking with people who know different styles and knowing their opinions. Generally the discussions about the origin of capoeira are lost between nationalism and Afrocentrism without any objectivity.
     
  9. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    Thank you for the links, useful to understand the displacement of the people of Madagacar, the theory on diamanga is based on a small group of Malgaxe "exhausted" to Brazil.

    "Among them, 2,680 belong to majorities (guineas, mine and angola) and 272 to other minority origins distributed among 120 benguelas, 70" Cape Verdeans ", 21 33 congos, 26 ganguelas, nine massanganas, four monjolos, Two rebolas, one of the Island of São Lourenço, one quissamã, one loanda.
    The counter-coast is not part of the slave route that supplies Brazil. Yet there are, according to Antonil, "... some (slaves) from Mozambique, who come in the ships of India."
    Between the years 1720/1722, seventeen adults of the island of St. Lawrence (formerly name of the island of Madagascar) are baptized in the Cathedral. During this period also two Mozambican adults are baptized. The concentration of nineteen baptisms over a period of three years indicates the
    Of a vessel coming from the coast. It also shows that when it comes to owners
    Who baptize their slaves, they receive the sacrament in a relatively
    I enjoy. Of the seventeen slaves of the island of St. Lawrence four are baptized in 1720, eleven in 1721 and only two in 1722. The two Mozambicans are baptized in 1720. "

    Diamanga to have influenced silat is an interesting possibility, but it would be even more difficult to prove, I do not imagine Indonesians assimilating this easily, there is a certain census of nationalism as one speaks of the origin of a martial art, in Brazil lately, a movement is growing that Wants to credit the origin of capoeira to the Brazilian natives at all costs (no matter how much it does not make sense), ignoring that style of struggle seen among the natives is very different from capoeira, ignoring the African n'golo and the ladja of Martinique
    There are many discussions about the origin of capoeira in Brazil, the general opinion is that it has existed since the 17th century in rural areas, but the reports of that time are scarce. Capoeira became much more striking in the 19th century, there are many who think that it appeared on the outskirts of cities between the 18th and 19th centuries.
    In the 19th century criminal records involving gangs of capoeiristas were intense, there was even a singunlar episode in which capoeiristas protected a city from the attack of foreign militiamen.
    There may be different reasons for this discrepancy in the accounts, but I suppose it is because the capoeira was still forming and that possibly the diamond was a last element in its formation.
    As far as training mode depends, practitioners who compete in competition (in contact competition) have a more specific training (using sandbags and kicking targets), but most train capoeira in a similar way to a dance or gymnastics , Training attacks and their respective evasions and counterattacks without actually aiming to reach the opponent, many practitioners do not even consider capoeira a fight, there is a saying of a former master that highlights the different ways of interpreting capoeira:
    "Capoeira is a fight for those who are fighters" (Mestre Burgues)
    But I mean the modern training of capoeira, I do not know how it was centuries ago.
    As for the silat, I do not know his method of training, but I know that it has a connection with musicality like capoeira.

    A comparison between capoeira and silat
    A Cross-Cultural Comparison of Capoeira and Pencak Silat - Macquarie University
    Two examples of capoeira competition with contact (which often bother practitioners and enthusiasts "purist")


    A Capoeira Ultilitaria (Rio) training, a style that focuses on effectiveness, but has lost a lot of space for Capoeira Regional (Bahia)
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    What do you actually mean by Silat though? Even in that classification of an art there are dozens if not more of style variations, so if you are looking for a start point you need to identify which style of Silat you are referring to
     
  11. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    I do not know exactly how primitive silat may have been transmitted to Madagascar, but currently the style I believe to have more similarities with capoeira is silat melayu
     
  12. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    If there would be one style of silat which at least visually has some similarities with capoeira it could be Silek Tuo Minang ( Minangkabau) which is one of the oldest styles of silat and originates from Sumatra. I'm not talking about fighting strategy but just a superficial visual similarity.
     
  13. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    I said this so many times to people.

    Alot of systems or styles are similar in execution just because people can move in only certain ways. BUT the principles behind that execution can differ.

    We had this discussion many times and we agree to disagree :D
    My opinion on incorporating techniques from other styles was done long before we all were born. It's called survival. Anyways thats not the discussion at hand here.

    Just want to add that this time i agree to a certain extent :eek:

    People shouldn't be to hung up about techniques but try to understand the principles beyond the technique.

    If Capoeira and Silat have ties, no idea....
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    So have you a further aim in this, are you writing a book, are you planning on training, etc.
     
  15. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    I found this Malagasy site that points to another source for the island's ways of fighting. This is, in a way, the influence of African continent culture in Madagascar, but prefers to go to an opposite region, Polynesia.
    I found the text somewhat biased, it seems that its purpose is to "distance" Madagascar from Africa, but in any case I sent a message asking for information.
    Les origines des sports de combat malagasy
     
  16. Jefferson Pierce

    Jefferson Pierce New Member

    I found this collection of research elaborated by FICA (International Capoeira Federation) where on page 27 it is reported:

    "41 Diamanga is inherited from our ancestors such as the Malays, who imported the Buddhist and Indian styles "Pencak, ber-silat, Sikaran and Sikaran" that imposed "Kalaripayat." The research conducted by "Fototra Diamanga Malgaxe" Even if a list of different styles of techniques "Diamanga" is also already established national language of the association, it will continue to be sought exhaustively."

    Sorry, the referral link is no longer found.

    PAPER 147 - CHRONICA - RINGA MALGACHE - V 2.doc - Microsoft Word Online
    A Word Online file that I could not translate completely

    More about diamanga
    Google Tradutor
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Actually just to quickly go into the ethnic groups of Madagascar - the population DNA is an almost perfect 50/50 genetic mix of the malayo-polynesians that sailed there a few thousand years ago from malaysia and later bantu people from the african mainland (source - natonal geographic).
    You can even see cultural and linguistic influences in the similarities to malayo-polynesian groups (see malayo-polynesian languages)
    Then factor in Islamic ruling class that came from being part of the Islamic golden age trade routes (that included predominately sumatra), indonesia may have had some influence on madagascar

    Also madagascan people have a specially shaped malayo-polynesian pentagonal skull which is found in the brazilian population (bishop museum podcast on polynesian genetics in south america and the origin of the sweet potato) as well as accounts from (i believe) Darwin talking of the tyrannies of slavery where a well educated arabic speaking black slave in brazilian was cruelly beaten for being smarter than a slave owner.

    so yea it's unlikely but possible. however theres more compelling evidence for other, specially west, african arts and madagascar has its own very developed culture which makes a direct linkunlikely (madagascar was well developed and popuated long before the islamic explorations)
     

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