Training like elite athletes

Discussion in 'What Not To Do' started by Mangosteen, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    But you have boxing as part of your beginners syllabus?
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio


    Though obviously some of the punches and movement are similar.
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I see where the confusion set in.

    I didn't mean that we teach boxing in our beginner's syllabus. I was just drawing the comparison to relatively quick-to-learn techniques that everyone would be familiar with. It was an analogy.
  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    You seem to be trying to disagree just to disagree.

    I agreed with you. Hard work is very important but in many activities you are limited by your genetics although few except the top elite ever reach these limits - hence why we can always strive to be better.

    China has a massive population pool and they dominate many many olympic sports just due to that. Yet they aren't great at 100m.

    Xiu Liang may be lucky in his inheritance. But it's commonly studied that many asian populations lack the right allele of ACTN3 that is commonly found in elite sprinters and is linked to muscular contraction.

    Surprisingly race is partially linked to inheritance.

    It's a statistics game. Probability:
    Many athletes in china in general
    Few having the right ACTN3 allele
    lack of popularity
    = Few olympic medallist sprinters.

    Usain bolt's lifting program and sprinting style is said to be poor compared to ideal biomechanics but he's just better than everyone. His rate of force development is kept at the same level throughout the sprint.

    A guy on my course of east african origin (a population where the fast twitch ACTN3 allele is common) rocked up to national sprinting championships and took 3rd place having never trained for it in his life (he took third place against trained sprinters and over Scotland's 200 best sprinters).
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Hahaha, I wonder what's that like to do something like that.
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i think its like getting a bronze medal, invited to a development competition and possibly going to Rio if scotland becomes independent before the 2016 olympics.

    crazy thing is: the guy only does bodybuilding stuff and occasionally plays football but rarely turns up to that.
    some people are just better than you, me and a majority of the population without training and even sometimes with
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Bolt isn't elite, he's a machine. His 200m record is even more incredible if you consider what it means! I do think that the more Chinese and other Asians concentrate on the sport, the more elite athletes emerge though. Look at judo for example, when it was first introduced as an Olympic sport, the Japanese dominated. However, the more foreigners became involved and interested in it, the more egalitarian the winning became(of course judging bias and other things might play a factor but in general that should be a pretty common trend).

    I'm not arguing just to argue. I don't agree with your assessment is all. The 100m isn't all of sprinting, and as has been shown, people of African descent now dominate that race, but it wasn't always like that. Chariots of Fire is how things used to look a little less than a century ago. Same could be said of marathons.
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Another viewpoint -

    ''My personal aim is to be a great mediocre BJJ student. While some will tell you that we all should strive to be world champions I think that’s misguided thinking for many of us. I’ve had the pleasure the last few weeks to watch one of our purple belts prepare for the Mundials. He’s a VERY good purple belt. Probably brown belt at most schools. He’s in the gym every evening. If he’s not rolling he’s doing conditioning work. He’s been living and breathing BJJ. He has a day job but has been taking up the rest of his free time with BJJ.

    He had the satisfaction of winning 3rd place in his division. A huge accomplishment. He had no points scored on him in any of his matches. None. He lost his last match by advantages. He proved that he is a world class athlete and can compete with the very best out there.

    An interesting thing that he told me was that all the top guys in his bracket were full time athletes. Every single one. They were either full time gym owners, MMA fighters, or young guys who live at the gym. I was shocked that even at purple belt level guys have to train full time to be competitive. It was also a testament to our guy’s BJJ training that he could compete effectively with those full time athletes while still training part time.

    Having said that though, his part time training was still way more than most of us could or would endure. If someone told me that I had to now train at that intensity level all the time I’d probably leave the art. That kind of training would take all the enjoyment out of it for me and would make it another chore to add to the list of chores I already dread doing. It’s this way for many of us. We have found an intensity level and frequency of training that fits comfortably in our lives. We manage to find a balance that keeps us healthy and happy and still ensures steady progress. Our training is a positive influence on our lives and personal relationships. It does not harm them.

    For many of us taking time to train at that elite athlete level would mean giving up things that are far too important like time with children. Maybe our personal relationships would suffer. Or even our health. It just would not be in our best interest to put aside large chunks of our lives and replace them with BJJ training. This is why the vast majority of us will never progress beyond the level of hobbyist.

    This doesn’t mean that we can’t be very good at the art though. It doesn’t even mean that I can’t have better BJJ than the world class competitive athletes. It only means I won’t have world class COMPETITION BJJ. I’m OK with that. As are many who train with me. For those of us who think this way a slightly different path is required. We need a way to get good that doesn’t require full time high intensity training. For that here are some ideas that I propose:

    Tips on being a great mediocre grappler-
    Be consistent. Training 2 times a week every week is going to pay off more than training very intensely for short periods followed by stretches of time off. Of course I have no scientific data to back this up but I’ve seen it play out over and over again at the gym. Enough to confidently make this claim.
    Focus on fundamentals. At it’s core fundamentals can be broken down into Posture, Pressure, and Possibilities. Building a library of techniques is not a great or efficient way to get good. You only have so much room on your bookshelf. At a certain point the shelf will be filled and you’ll have to throw some out to make room for new ones. In my personal experience I’ve rarely seen anyone who is good at more than about 5 submissions at one time. They may know way more than that but their A game is mostly limited to the top 5. Adding 50 more moves won’t help your game much.
    Focus on Posture most of all.I tell students that the posture should do about 80% of the work for you. You should always be asking yourself “Am I in posture?” If the answer is no then you know what you have to do. If posture does 80% of the work then you should be spending most of your time either working to get posture, improving the posture you have, or fighting to keep it. If you are doing this then BJJ will be way easier.Focusing on posture means getting the best possible posture you can get WHILE putting the other person in the worst possible posture you can. If you create this posture imbalance then you don’t have to be good at BJJ in order to beat the other guy. Remember, the posture does 80% of the work.
    Don’t roll above 70%.(Link to post on 70%) I you go all out all the time then you will be building a game that requires that you go all out all the time. That’s hard to do if you aren’t young and in super shape. Instead try building a posture based game that REQUIRES that you move slower and concentrate on simply building good posture along the way. A good goal is to build efficient postures that use leverage and structure instead of muscle strength. To use efficient motion that requires less intensity of movement. And to use fewer movements in your overall game. My goal is to win by moving less and less until eventually you won’t even notice that I’m moving at all. :)
    Focus on breathing. If you can’t devote lots of extra time to conditioning exercises you need to be very mindful of your breathing. Stop and check during a roll. Are you breathing heavier than the other guy? If the answer is yes then you need to slow down and focus on posture. Catch your breath before you exert too much energy. Breathing heavy is a sure sign that you are not attending to posture effectively.
    Simplify the game. Can I use the same posture in mount bottom that I use in cross sides bottom? How many ways can I use this triangle submission? Finding multiple uses for things that you already do well is a great way to improve your game without having to put a tremendous amount of extra time in. As you learn new things try to relate them to things you already know and look for commonalities wherever you can.
    Don’t keep score. The worst thing you can do for your game is to keep track of who you tapped and who tapped you. It’s counter productive and probably the worst way to measure progress. If you focus on the tap you miss most of the joy of BJJ. You won’t notice the beautiful guard pass, the gorgeous butterfly sweep, the perfectly timed escape… All the things that happen in a roll that show mastery of the game. A gym where nobody keeps score is a healthy gym. If you are in a gym where there are a lot of side conversations about who tapped who you’ll find the atmosphere unhealthy. A tap should only be treated as an event that happens in grappling that tells you when to stop. Nothing more. There are many better ways to measure progress.
    Enjoy the journey. In only every case those who enjoy it more are better at it. Train in a way that is healthy, smart, and most of all fun. Will power will get you a year of training at best. If you aren’t having a blast on the mat you won’t stick around or train in a way that will allow you to make much progress. This is perhaps the most important rule. It’s certainly not about “dedication” or “work ethic” as some will describe. Look around you. What looks like dedication is actually someone following their bliss. They are doing it because it’s the most enjoyable and rewarding thing they can think of to do. This is only always the case.
    This is my list. It’s what has kept me in the game for the last 14 years or so. It has also allowed me to find a balance where my BJJ training is a positive influence on my life. It doesn’t get in the way of my other responsibilities and relationships. It also has a positive effect on my physical and mental health. I’m happier and healthier and still competitive in the gym. The young guys know that they are in for all kinds of hell when they roll with me. My game is improving at a pace that I’m very comfortable with. That’s important. This way of training has set me on the path to achieving my goal of being the best mediocre grappler in the gym. Happy training! ''
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I recently watched the UFC special on forrest, and he himself said he's not at all talented compared to the other top level guys, what he does is just work harder and longer then everyone else.
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Undoubtedly if the chinese wanted to, they have the resources to dominate sprinting as well as the population size.

    My point is that percentage wise, compared to african population, asian populations have a distinct genetic disadvantage in sprinting because of ACTN3 alleles.
    Although china has the resources, population size and capabilities to select the gifted athletes and train them up to olympic gold like they've done with many other sports.

    Leading back to my original that most the pros are slightly more genetically gifted compared to the general populace (im sure forrest griffin was but possibly not as much as others) and were selected or even self selected into becoming the best.
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The chinese don't need genetics they can just channel chi instead.
    And they can also channel chi and dominate the combat sports and weight lifting too.
    I mean...that's what I'd do if I had access to chi cultivation. :)
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    First you have to know how to change the channels!
  13. liero

    liero Valued Member

    Elite performances occur when passion and talent meet persistent preparation.

    Yes, it takes a lot of sacrifice to be at an international/elite/whatever degree of expertise in any sport, but especially a combat sport. But that doesn't mean we should actively discourage people from attempting that and setting lofty goals and aspirations.

    I'm pretty sure the original point of the post was to warn people against the habit of starting MMA and after 3 weeks training doing a google search for GSP's training log then copying it. Right?
  14. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    yeah it wasnt discouraging training to BE elite but discouraging training LIKE elite.
    also having realistic expectations about progressing. its unlikely youll be international elite when coming into MA at the age of 28 with little other competitive or sporting experience but you might have a shot at local or national competitions.
  15. liero

    liero Valued Member

    I think with the appropriate programming and a solid preparation based on sport science blah blah and no serious injuries a 28 year old could manage to train with the frequency and intensity of an elite athlete, but it could take a year or two to build up to that. The real issue is whether they can develop an equivalent level of sport specific skills.

    I used to do karate as a teenager and loved competitions. when I was 18 I trained in taekwondo and worked over about 18 months to the level where I was deemed ready by my coach to fight at black belt state level...while I was fit, fast, strong and used to combat sports...which had won me many fights in the colour belt divisions, my inadequate match experience in tkd meant that apart from one or two local comps I didn't win a fight for over 12 months. I was competing against people who had been practicing their specific skills for many more years than I had. fast forward and now im 25, I have beaten most of the people that are still around in the sport from my early days fighting due to the skill and athletic improvement from years of dedicated training.

    im training and fighting at a level that I would not have thought about when I started but the progression was natural and enjoyable.
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I honestly cant believe you had to reiterate this bit? Or that 4 pages later people are still arguing with your original points
    But then people always look at the tip of an athlete’s peak and never bother to look at the base they built through years of constant consistant sensible normal training

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