This article is an extract from 'Irish Fighter' a martial arts magazine published in Ireland. The author, Paul O'Brien, writes in each issue on a particular aspect of traditional Chinese medicine(TCM). Unsurprisingly he isn't objective on the subject, nor would I expect him to be since he runs a TCM clinic. It would be like a doctor working in a hospital having doubts on the validly of western medicine. He believes it works, therefore he tries to heal people through this medical system(both the hypothetical doctor and the author). Or if you were to be cynical the author is attempting to prove the authenticity of TCM through his articles and make money from it. I know very little on the subject of TCM and western medicine, so I'd thought I'd share these articles(I'll post the others when I can get the older issues I have and if there is interest in them) with you guys and see what you think. Does the article have any basis? [First Page] http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af136/water300/DSCF1371.jpg [Second Page] http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af136/water300/DSCF1373.jpg Apologies for the quality, I don't have a scanner and had to use a camera. From my own background in history some of the claims he makes rings a few alarm bells(the first page, underlined in blue) they are quite sweeping and there is no reference to where he got this information. Especially this one: How does he know this? Arriving at such a conclusion is a serious piece of historical work. His claim of returning to training after breaking the tibia, in three places, and returning to training after 4 weeks. Is this even possible? (From my own very very limited knowledge, a clean break takes 6 weeks or there abouts) Being able to reduce pain and swelling, I can work with. But such a fast return to training... The red box on the second page is something I have a problem with. (it costs €3/$5). That just seems a little too strange, but that's my opinion. One thing in the article I do find interesting is the development of medicine alongside the development of fighting systems. Does anyone knows of any good books/links on the subject? Has it been studied seriously? Hopefully this thread can get opinions from both sides. A discussion. I know how much flak these topics can attract so lets keep it civil and not allow it to descend into a verbal brawl.
Just bumping this up in the hope of getting some sort of reply/debate. If not it will be allowed to die.
Medicine in the Orient has for millennium, been ahead of the world. However, modern medicine owns much of its foundations upon wars like the US Civil, WWI and WWII. I am very skeptical of such old fashion, TCM or folklore practices. I once had a student, whom decided to have an ailment treated with acupuncture. He went to see an acupuncturist. After a few weeks of sessions, the condition worsened. Finally he went to a modern physician. I don't know if this is the same person you speak of in this thread; http://www.meridian-acupuncture-clinic.com/Treatable-Conditions.html
I bet the trial and error of the battlefield doctors dealing with the assortment of wounds was profoundly depressing in the exploration stage of this. I really have wondered about the meridians of our bodies. And if on a healthy body certain types of acupuncture points could be stimulated and some type of nerve flow or something benefits from this. Possibly directing bad whatever's to a new positive inter body highway correct path.If such does exist
Think about it. If accupuncture was really beneficial, wouldn't modern medicine accept it? Wouldn't insurance companies pay for it?
Ummm not sure of your arguement... at least 3000 physios using it here in the UK, many in the NHS Our organisation is affiliated with the British Medical Acupuncture Association. I studied under neurologists and physical medicine specialists from both the US and Canada which suggests at least some medical support. Paid for within the insurance schemes here depending on your professional designation. Recommended as a treatment of choice by NICE (National Institute of Clinical Excellence) How does that sound?? Actually not sure that any of it really proves anything other than a certain proportion of patients feel some benefit whether placebo or otherwise. Personally I have had enough empirical evidence that suggests something is happening beyond the placebo effect although I am still not sure I buy into the meridian stuff. Certainly there are changes that should be measurable in an appropriately controlled double blind study although I see that there have been few good attempts so far. Part of the problem is the fact that diagnoses have often been too woolly leaving it difficult to compare like for like. I do know that I have used acupuncture on patients where I know there are potential effects the patient will not expect and have seen responses that seem to suggest that something beyond the placebo is happening. NOT good science but my little case studies (looking at what a patient perceives when they are not told what to expect and comparing these with my predicted results) have shown things (other than a change in pain perception) that would support it having some type of physiological effect beyond placebo. Ask me to tell you why I think this and I can respond. Ask me if I can prove it and I would say that this is still in it's infancy :' ) So much more work needs to be done before anything conclusive can be stated! FWIW powchoy
Just to add, the guy mentioned by the OP sounds odd. I agree completely that fractures take at least 6 weeks to heal and that many things go away by themselves thus making anyone who waits long enough a success with any sort of treatment in many instances. Acupuncture is not a panacea. It does have potential and has been recognised as a valid treatment, often in conjunction with normal medical procedures, for a certain set of complaints. It is unfortunate that with a treatment that has potential has so many people with weird ideas muddying the waters and making it less credible. As there has been no mention of my comments re the acceptability of acupuncture I will leave these links for anyone interested. http://www.medical-acupuncture.co.uk/ http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/helmsarticle.html http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/acupuncture/Pages/Introduction.aspx http://www.bupa.co.uk/individuals/health-information/directory/a/acupuncture http://www.axappphealthcare.co.uk/personal/cash-plan/silver-level-cover http://www.aacp.org.uk/ http://thesehands.ca/index.php/site/Conditions_Physiotherapists_Treat/
Considering a physician from Europe may not practice in Canada (without going through heavy bureaucracy from the professional order), I don't think it is very difficult to theorize on why acupuncture is not *accepted in modern medicine.
The problem is the lack of non-placebo results from various studies. Many studies have been carried out in true scientific fashion on the effectiveness of acupuncture, and unfortunately for its proponents it doesn't seem to matter whether you use the correct acupuncture points or jab the needles in at random: the overall results appear to be the same. The only conclusion to make from this sort of study is that acupuncture should not receive funding from governments or insurance companies except via research grants to carry out further study.
Sorry I had left this thread for so long, had slipped my mind. Thanks for the responses. @47MartialMan: That link you posted must be the same guy, his details given in the article and on the website match. Had you come across him before or is this a result of your google skills? @Late_for_Dinner: Thanks for the input and the links, I'll have a read when I get a chance. In comparison to his other articles this one stood out the most in terms of what he was claiming TCM was capable of(particularly with the tibia break). If any one is interested in reading the others just say and I'll stick them up. If not, thanks again.
I cant believe how well a hot toddy works compared to modern medicine. Its better if you ask me . Not exactly eastern but it works .
pardon? OK I think that you have been given a bit of slightly incorrect information. The thing is that you are comparing apples and oranges... the physician thing is completely different than acupuncture.. When I was living in Canada it used to be easy for doctors from western european (mainly British Isles) uni's to come over and with a minimum of difficulty become registered and work. Doctors from third world and less reputable countries were asked to spend a time working sort of under probation and supervision because their training was not trusted as being equivalent to a Canadian doctor's training. In the late 80's (sorry I can't remember the dates) there was an accusation of institutional racism against the licensing boards saying that the restrictions had more to do with colour than skill levels. Needless to say the boards had to figure out what to do so as not to be seen as being racist. The solution was to make ALL doctors go through the probationary period which led to a number of problems when I was there. Consultants would have to work for I believe 2 years before they would be given recognition as able to practice. I know some South African docs that were interested in living in Canada that quickly opted to go to the USA once they realized the pilaver they would have to go through. The Canadian authorities do recognize acupuncture (I belonged to one of the Canadian medical acupuncture societies) and there are licensing boards for both traditional acupuncture and medical acupuncture in a number of provinces. Hope that this clairifies things for you. LFD
ummmm The problem is that there are a number of conditions that seem to respond to acupuncture as a treatment when nothing else works. I agree that studies need to be carried out and there is ongoing research that is hopefully clarifying when acupuncture might be most beneficial for what ever reason. If you have a patient who is unable to function and using acupuncture allows them to get on with rehabilitation when previously they could not does it really matter as along as there is minimal risk to the patient?? I had a lady with a broken neck that was incapable of doing anything until she had acupuncture and she found it controlled her pain when the medications would not. Cheap, relatively risk free and easy to apply... not a bad thing even if a placebo. Certainly not a cure all and not appropriate for all patients or all conditions. There are lots of things in modern medicine that work to a degree in spite of the fact that we can't explain them/justify their use. Better research is really needed but that is not reasonable grounds for not providing something that at least empirically works when other methods have not (Note I am not saying that it couldn't be done better... just that we have to work with what we have at the moment. It's easy to say do nothing when you don't have someone suffering in front of you asking for your help). FWIW LFD
