HIIT and LSD

Not really those studies have shown whilst you burn more calories per hour you simply cant do enough actual work to burn more calories than you can through LSD aerobic type of work, especially in a calorie depleted state

As for anaerobic training having the same benefits as aerobic work this is not true, it can increase one aspect of aerobic work VO2 max, which is a way to measure aerobic power, but can have a detrimental impact on aerobic capacity (determined primarily by enzyme activity and mitochondrial density within the muscle). Other studies have shown clearly that interval work and steady state work generate different results in this regards, intervals improve VO2 max but can actually decrease aerobic enzyme activity within skeletal muscle.


In that study the tabata group started at a lower point and finished at a lower point as well, starting at a lower point means you have more room for improvement so you would expect them to make better improvements than fitter people, and the fact is that most of their improvements happened in the first 3 weeks and then the gains were minimal despite constantly increasing workloads
Which is a point to bear in mind, aerobic improvements are near limitless, most interval studies show that after 6 weeks gains stop happening

Yes both groups trained 5 x a week to get the gains they got, who here really thinks that on top of MMA/TMA training and weight training they can do 4 tabata sessions a week at 170% of VO2 max, most people here I suggest would throw up 4 sets in on their first workout, and without doing the workout the exact way tabata did it, at 170% 4 times a week, with aerobic warm ups for each session and one session of steady state a week you simply wont get the gains that group got

Also bear in mind their study was done on a bike, so was low impact and not that dangerous, if you mess up on the bike you stop peddling, if you are doing repeat sprints or thrusters etc you can do real damage and the cumulative impact on joints will be much higher

And what you did is the best way to go around training, build a base first with aerobic training, and then add in some intervals, and intervals where you sprint a bit and then jog are not the same as tabatas as you won’t make the same gains as his group did

 

You obviously know more about this so I'm not going to argue.
I wasn't trying to suggest that I was doing tabata training, just stating how I had been training. I can't wait to get over this pneumonia so I can back to training:bang:. I never knew what boredem was before spending a week in an isolation ward in hospital, I swear I was going to kill someone if I had to stay there much longer.

 

yep should probably have left that comment off sorry, was basically agreeing with your approach its very sensible

 

All good
Just glad I was doing the right thing in training.

 

The case from both sides is overstated IMO. Also, the activity itself might not be an either/or- if you ran up a long hill at any point during your run, which is very likely, you've done an interval!

 

I'd always been severly overweight all through childhood through midteens, then after being introduced to something rather unfortunate, I went the polar opposite in weight - ematiated is the kindest term to use.

Anyroad, I'd never participated in any sports as a kid - soccer/futball, races, etc. Near the end of school, I gained employment as a brick-mason's mate and stayed with it several years before going to University. The hard-labour toned muscles and to some extent, must've increased my endurance, however, I never ran or participated in any sort of LSD or HIT sports.

Years later, I returned to University for some additional classwork in my early to mid thirties. For some reason a wild bug crawled up there and I decided to join the University's Military ROTC programme. I was already too old for a commission, but I was keen on doing something that I'd never done before and felt like I needed to do it. So I talked the CO of the school's Mil Studies dept into it and they gave me a waiver. All I really wanted to do was the PT part of it anyway, show up at 6am and do the run's, excercises, drills and go to the weekend camps they had.

I won't go into all of it, but I'd never run as much as a quarter-mile at that point. What I found odd was, after a couple of weeks of running on my own before the Fall training programme started at school, I found that slow distance running did not present itself a problem. I was shocked on my first morning PT drill - they had us to run a basic 2 mile (8 minutes per, canna recall ) and some of the young 19, 20 year old freshmen were throwing up during the run. They ran a good deal faster'n me to start, I was slow and steady as I knew my physical conditioning was tenuous at best. But we finished at roughly the same times. I was midway to the last third or something. I thought "man, I'm gonna be alright".

It was a different situation altogether with the high intesity drills and excercises...the ones that required sprints, speed, certain types of obstacle courses, etc.

I thought I was gonna die...the DI's did as well, they pulled me out of PT a couple of times because of the extreme sweating, winded like an emphysema patient...

Fast forward...I got into running...10ks alot, even did half-marathons...( any kind of running that doesn't involve HIT/sprints etc ) BUT...my physical reactions to high intensity training ARE STILL the same...extreme sweats, winded, just about to die. I've done treadmills at the doctor's office for my physicals and they gave me A +. I could do a 10k, but canna play a game of basketball, follow?

My question is, as I'm beginning MA and running into this brick-wall with HIT, has anyone else experienced this??? Did I inadvertantly set some sort of ceiling on my life-long capabilities by being inactive as a youngster? Can this 'ceiling' be reset? I'm gettin aggravated by it.

ta

 

Osu Belltoller,


LSD and HIIT use different energy systems.
You seem to have a pretty good aerobic capacity; it is the anaerobic that is used for sprints, etc...
It could be partly genetics, and partly your history of exercising that explains it.

However, there is always a way to improve from where you are at; I believe that if you strat to progressively introduce intervals in your training, you will make great progress towards improving your anaerobic systems.
Maybe you could start with upping the intensity with low impact: Obviously you can un 3 Km (2 miles) in 15 min. Next time you are on the track, run the same 3 km in 10 sequences of 300m (without stopping), alternating fast (+25% in speed) and slow (-25% in speed) to finish in the same time.

Then see what your body tells you in the next two days, and adjust the intensity accordingly...

Do this 6 times with 5 days in between, and report how you feel...


Osu!

 

The chronology is a bit condensed... I was doing 5min/km 10 years ago! I suppose I was at the peak around the time I did the half-marathon, which I did at a turtle's pace.

My friend whom I ran with in those days had told me that once I got to the 21km level, I'd find that afterwards I'd be able to " run like the wind".

Oddly, that wasn't the case. I was never able to increase the pace/speed beyond a slow jog for any distance beyond 8km. For example, if I kept the 5min/km beyond 6,7 or 8km, I'd not be able to finish.

Anyroad, I do see what you are getting at. I will try your suggestions with the interval training, as I've started back jogging again.

I'm asking meself the same questions I see get posted here on MAP all the time..."what level of condition should I be in before I begin X or Y martial art?"

I think the answer of 'just get in there and train, add x, y and z to your routine' applys to most. I do know that for those of us who literally have to change our drenched cloathes after 3 or 4 minutes of jump-roping, probably need to spend some serious pre-conditioning time before we sign up for the amatuer kickboxing club. I don't quite get it. I'm not that old. I've never been a drinker, not overweight, clean from hard d's for some time, I run/jog, yet, you'd think I'd just finished the Iron-Man after a few minutes of mountain-climbers...

Thanks for your response!

 

I did some (long) hill sprints with some younger [10-15 years] colleagues and disappointingly didn't manage to keep up with them, but oddly I tried really hard and at the end I could still manage a conversation while they were doubled over, yet I could not push myself to go any faster like my legs and heart just wouldn't. I was annoyed because I still have the memory of running faster when I was their age, or at that speed, possibly more.

Some HIIT exercises are a killer, mountain climbers, split lunge jumps, proper burpees, 60 seconds of those and I need an easier follow up to recover before going into another one. I used to do a lot of this at my last gym, a lot less at the mo and my running pace and stamina has really suffered.

 

Ah...lightbulbs are beginning to come on.

I've spent all this time waiting for my low intensities to start accruing into better payoffs with respects to managing high intesity training. It does just the opposite, then.

It was your HIIT MA training that enabled you to pull off long distance running, etc with relative ease. I've been doing it backwards all this time. No wonder I didn't see any results. My thinking was "well, do enough 5ks, 10ks, maybe I'll be able to handle that Muay Thai class."

My thinking was ********.

Canna thank you enough for these posts.

 

aerobic training will help you with anerobic events in two ways, it will help you recovery quicker between rounds of HIIT, and it will stop you going lactic too quickly, the problem is aerobic training does not just mean doing long slow runs, that develops just one aspect of aerobic fitness, capacity aerobic power is another thing altogether and needs training differently

it sounds to me like you haven't trained your aerobic power ie you ability to sustain power at a high work rate for several minutes or rounds, Start slowly Add some tempo runs in, this is a good way to work the aerobic system at a higher rate and also introduce some faster passed work into your workout

Basically run 12-17secs at about 75% of your top speed, walk back to the start and go again, do this for about 20- 30 minutes 2 times a week along with your longer passed runs and then see how you do. Basically its lowish intensity intervals, 12-17 secs of work with bout 60 seconds rest (the time it takes you to walk back to the start.) charlie franics and other athletic coaches use tempo runs alot

Another method to use, if you have access to one is hill sprints, run up a hill for 5 -8 seconds, walk back to the start and go again, ideally you want to rest until your HR is about 130bpm (to ensure you don’t train the lactic system too much), do 20 or so repeats of this, again twice a week

The difference between the two methods above is one is longer but at less intensity, or put another way one is shorter but the actual sprints faster and more taxing, if you don’t have a hill near by use a treadmill on a high incline 13% or so, or use an exercise bike with a high resistance setting (to simulate the incline)

Obviously you can use both methods at once, but cut the volume so you are not doing intervals 4 days a week )

 

Quite right your thinking is wrong, as is the thinking of all those Thai boxers in Thailand who run everyday doing 5k and 10ks, I wonder why they do that and don’t just do burpees all the time….same for all those pro and amateur boxers what are they thinking of

I also wonder why the world champions in german world champion rowing team who compete in events or about 3 minutes don’t just do HIIT but instead put hours and hours into steady state aerobic work, they really need to start doing burpees and sprints………..


After reading this post and the one where you told us your running timeline was totally different to what you posted I would say just ignore my last post and go for the burpee and sprint root

 

I see your point with respects to the athletes using distance running in their training, boxers in particular. I warnt being clever in my last post, just trying to find a reason as to why I've not been able to make progress - I'm more thrashed from a few mountain climbers than jogging 25 minutes and don't know if thats normal. I realised I've not included any interval training whatsoever, as far as running goes. I've never run top speed, walked and started again - odd as it sounds. Though I do have a walk-about after a jog, as I'm so winded, its necessary.

I'd rather not ignore your post as I'd printed it out already and hoped to get a start on it...its something clearly stated, managable as we've a couple of steep hills here that'll be helpful with it.

As far as the time line goes,,,I dunno,,, I did nearly all that ( the term 'all that' is really a joke here ) running between early to mid 30's till about 40, then I stopped virtually all excercise and recently started jogging ( I've not gone beyond 5k this last period), working out with the kids and joining the MMA gym. I'm 47 now.

If I sounded like I was saying I just went out and ran a 8min/mile 10k yesterday, my bad.

Find your posts on the subject very helpful. Keep them coming!

 

Sorry my bad wasn’t aimed at you but some of the misinformation out there, ill try to be more constructive promise

Heres the thing, you can build aerobic conditioning to a near limitless level (ie how long have you got to put into it, run every day for 10 miles at least and your aerobic conditioning will reach marathon levels and keep improving month after month, with intervals most peak after 3 to 6 weeks and that’s it, its why a lot of athletes only do a few weeks of intervals a year and normally just before a competition in order to peak), but if you don’t continue training the aerobic system it goes very quickly, to build a good aerobic base you need to do sessions of at least 30 minutes at a steady heart rate between 120 and 140bpm for someone in their 40’s, this can be done using jogging, shadow boxing, light medicine ball work, light drills etc as long as the HR is at the right zone, that’s why people use jogging so much, it allows for a constant pace and if yuou don’t have a HR monitor so what its easy to judge pace and keep it constant. And you need to do at least three of these sessions a week to see any improvement at all.

Now as I said this is building you aerobic capacity, to build its power (which you seem to be having a problem with) those intervals I wrote about will help a lot, so will other methods, one is working at a heart rate + or minus 5% of your anaerobic threshold (where you go from using predominantly the aerobic system to the lactic system) for extended periods of time, 2 sets that last between 5 to 10 minutes each with 10 minutes rest between sets will help enormously as well. If you don’t know your anaerobic threshold there are a few tests you can do to determine it, one is spar or do high paced pad work for 3 x 5 minute rounds with 1 minute rest in between each round, wear a heart rate monitor and take your average heart rate for each round (don’t include the rest periods) then you can work out your average HR. Another is to run for 6 minutes at a fast pace you can sustain…..take your average heart rate for those 6 minutes and either of those two methods will give you a good gage as to where your threshold is, then just work around that number (+ or - 5 beats for the required number of minutes.)

Hope that helps and once again sorry for being rude, oh and as you can probably guess id suggest buying a heart rate monitor for the above!

 

I recall hearing the 6 week peak from a couple of different sources. Is this what they're meaning by the term "overtraining"? Going over that threshold...obviously the law of diminishing returns comes with a steep penalty here.

Glad you put this is here 'cause I've been scratching for a good way to set baseline parameters for anaerobics that didn't require Excel spreadsheets!

I'm already ahead of the game on that one. Went out this morning and bought the monitor

I'm stoked about all this. Really motivated to get on with long-overdue changes in the way I've approached things.

Ya didn't come off as rude, this forum's exceptionally polite from what I've seen. Particularly if ya consider its by and for combative types to begin with.

 

From a fighters perpective both are important. I will go for a long run every day. I don't really feel the need to do much HIIT as while training I will do 5 or 6 rounds on the pads or bag with 30 seconds rest. So it's pretty close to doing HIIT.

I think a lot of people exagerate the importance of HIIT because going for long runs in the morning isn't as fun or as quick as going some sprints.

 

3 or 5 miles depending on how I'm feeling. Normally 5, but I don't run on sundays.