I tend to agree with your overall statement here. To me in TKMA the term "master" refers to a certain level of skill, knowledge, and dedication. The term "master" does not mean all knowing or perfect in TKMA (contrary to some folks' opinion about themselves).
To what you said about time in grade Mr Tulsa, the wksa black belt handbook says two years minimum between dahn ranks, any additional time is between your instructor and the grandmaster
ELLIOT: The WKSA handbook says alot, Elliot. When I first read it I was confused as to whether I was reading a legal document or if it was part of the franchise agreement. However, I believe in old school....where someone, let's say Byung In Lee, was in his 30's when he was promoted to 7th Dahn because he was just that good. TULSA: Student, Instructor, Master. I always believed in this way of ranking (and most of you know this): a student is a person learning at a school, a instructor is someone teaching at a school under a master, and a master is a school owner. MASTER in itself does not mean anything. In fact, I'm not sure there is a word for master in Korean (little help if I am mistaken). UNKNOWNKJN: Sorry sir, but I think that test would end in failure: not because Tulsa is not skilled but because that is one testing board with a s**t load of knowledge! Anyone would be far fetched to pass such grueling requirements...especially with CM Sims. MOOSULMASTER: No sir that comment was not directed at you just the many events that surround our wonderful Kuk Sool communities...be it people being babies or people being stubborn. Or liars. Whatever. LOL I am not asking for any kind of rank. I do believe selflessness, generosity, patience, kindness, and overall love of Kuk Sool should be the most important facet of grading someone for the level of master in Kuk Sool. But I have do disagree on one point...knowing you material DOES matter. I don't believe in TIG because some waited there time and just did that...waited there time. I was at a testing where the man next to me (4th testing for 5th) was unable to complete little more than 20 or 30 pushups during testing without dropping to his knees. He was slim, no injuries, and rarely taught classes at his ever growing school. He got stuck at Go Guep Hyung during testing and was unable to finish that form or most of the other forms (we all have brain farts but this was the 3rd test I saw this happen to him). He was unable to even complete Dan Jun Ki Bup...for heaven's sake your LYING ON THE GROUND AND BREATHING! He is a master now and flaunts his 5th Dahn or new uniform/title every chance he gets. So....now what? LOL Do I get ****ed and demand MY 5th Dahn or do I smile, take it on the chin, and keep teaching? Since I'm not ****ing and moaning I guess we'll assume the latter, yes? LOL
:thinking: Hmmm... I'm not so sure I can agree with you here, Duelist. I mean I took plenty of tests where master Sims was a judge (or the proctor - he hates having to sit still for any length of time, hehe), and I never failed any (at least none that I'm aware of - ROFL).
It does seem to me like you're ****ing and moaning just a bit. When did I EVER say that knowing the material was unimportant?? I only pointed out that there are more lessons to be learned in the dojang than just technique. Character,patience,GOOD technique ... they are all important. What is also important is to not covet the fat unworthy guys rank testing beside you just because YOU don't think he deserved his promotion! The more I hear students talk about rank, and how they deserve promotion, the more I am convinced they need to wait a little longer to test. The apostle Paul said: "despise not thy youth" very wise words.
That is totally different then the quality assurance program was when I was in the WKSA. It must have changed? if that is the case you could make Master in under 10 years of starting Kuk Sool...... ?????:evil:
Actually that sound really really FUN. But to the question, the answer would still be NO! I would consider myself lucky to have the opportunity and extremely humbled to get knowledge from these men. BUT, until I feel like a "Master" (and I probably will never) I will never call myself one. I prefer to think of myself as a knowledgeable student. Now if the board of torturers decide I need another step up in rank I would not turn it down. But to call my self "Master" that would take allot of convincing (beating it into me). :evil:
MOOSULMASTER: I agree 100%. I'm not coveting anyone's rank just pointing out where the level for master is in the Kuk Sool Won these days. It seems that people don't bother to say "whoa, hold on a sec, your testing for master and you don't know your stuff? Hm." It's time people did. And no, paying 20 bucks for a new ascot is not part of the requirements folks! (>.<) "The term "master" does not mean all knowing or perfect in TKMA" Sorry sir, that's where I have to disagree; though none of us in my opinion can reach perfection or the all knowing state it is our goal to try our absoloute best. I think going "well, he's got most of his stuff down...we'll pass him anyway" is what's the cause of so many people being promoted to their next rank and not knowing their material. It is why so many people dont' seek to either add more material to their school syllabus. They don't want to push their "Po wittle studdents". I believe it is my job to push my students just enough so that they need to practice constantly. No, six staff forms will not make a difference but three very different ones will. You will learn different concepts, different methods, and you will have to practice more to perfect your skills. I have my school, I have my students, and I have the ability to train. What more could I possibly want? Oh! Except one of these cool neon glowing gold belts with this awsome dragon all around the side done in these little diamonds. Its very cool! I want that. LOL
관장 님 or Kwan Jang Nim is translated to my best ( which is a little lacking ) = Hi Director or Director of a Martial Arts School, Style or Organization. To my understanding ( again lacking ) not MASTER. So my question is why are "Masters" not called something else? This is just a little :topic:.....:evil:
So, in that case, anyone owning a school would be Kwan Jahng Nim. If that is the case, why ISN'T there a different title for Masters? I was once told Sah Buhm Nim means Master...can anyone shed some light on this?
Priceless, simply priceless. :happy: Attempting to answer the questions posed in posts #131 & #133... Actually, all of this has been gone over before here in the Kuk Sool forum on MAP, but I'm too lazy to try to siphon through the old threads in order to point to where this info may be hidden. Much easier for me to simply spell it all out again, so here goes: Yes, kwanjang [관장] means "director" if referring to a school or institute (same as "headmaster" in GB, or "principal" in USA). It also means "proprietor" (i.e. landlord/landlady) and so I've heard plenty of old-school korean masters laugh about the KWANJANG of the original school in Korea where they trained as beginners, being some old woman (LOL). I believe there is some legal restriction in Korea, which prohibits anyone under 4th dan (of whatever type MA they practice) from opening a dojang. Since "master" is a well-accepted translation for KWANJANG, this explains why some styles of KMA say that master level starts at 4th degree black belt. I have also known certain styles to use the term SABEOM [사범] (i.e. "teacher"), regardless of the person's rank, so long as the person actually serves in the capacity of an instructor. And yet still other styles, which tend to view the term KWANJANG as meaning "proprietor", will use SONSAENG [손생] or KYOSA [교사] for lower ranked instructors, reserving SABEOM for the higher ranked ones (this is why some people view sabeom as meaning "master"). As to WHY the term "master" got entrenched into the MA lexicon, I'm sure it has everything to do with the old trade-schools (aka: guilds) which populated Europe for many centuries. The guilds were often contracted or commissioned to produce arts & crafts, and talented people often sought employment from them, doing grunt work in exchange for learning the finer aspects of the school's art/craft. The "master/apprentice" titles used in Star Wars, was terminology which originated in the guilds, not in MA. But due to the influence of the ancient guilds, the word "master", which originally meant the owner of property (think "master of the estate" or "master of the house" as well as "master/slave"), eventually came to be synonymous with "teacher" especially in the context of a mentor, who guides a student (or protégé) along an arduous journey to enlightenment. The highest ranked or most knowledgeable artisan in the guild, usually owned the building (or house) which often became home to all the aspiring underlings. As students gradually gained more skill & insight into their chosen craft, they would eventually begin to teach new novices what they could. This is also why the word "master" gets equated with someone who has spent a long time perfecting their skill, or as the verb describing such actions (e.g. "to master an art"). It just occurred to me that those may have been rhetorical questions. If so, apologies for being so dense. :bang:
I tried to find info on this matter on MAP but, call me a newbie but I could not. Also I did not try for over 30 minutes. I understand your views totally. But in today's world it has become a Title of Mastering an Art. Just like a conductor calling himself maestro. Thinking back on a old Seinfeld episode. Even the Italian definition is master or teacher. So I am starting to see why in the MA world lots of people call themselves MASTER! I still have a problem thinking I will ever call myself a Master. I prefer Student. In fact I still like the old GIANT WHITE BELTS that Kuk Sool 5th Dans get. I think that should be worn more. :evil:
But it would be so much fun and a great learning experience to see all those knowledgeable Martial Artists again. I consider all of them family. They always have a place to stay when in Oklahoma. In my house, on a bed and not outside. In fact I would give up my own bed if needed.:evil:
Off Topic Hello Tulsa. I was wondering if you remember doing our first demo in Tulsa Ok at the school off 71 st. I did ask someone there who was filming if I could get a copy. Did you happen to get a copy and if you did can i get one from you. Thanks D2
I have all the videos, now I have to get them from VHS to DVD. I will work on that for you. Do you remember the date? It will help digging it out. I also have GM Suh's "Garbage Martial Art Magic" Seminar on Video if you want that one. :evil:
I thought that demo was done at a tournament held on the same weekend? Wow! suddenly we are back on topic. haha!
It was a great pleasure to have so many visiting Masters at our 2011 JTMS Korean Martial Arts Tournament in Bonham Texas! A special thanks to GM Jimm McMurray, Chief Master Dickson Kunz, Chief Master Richard Shoffit, Chief Master Troy Trudeau, Master Rick Chandler, Master Oren E. Headen, Master William Allen Sharpe, Master Joshua Paszkiewicz, and Master Jason Thomas. Thank you all for your support, fellowship and hard work over the weekend! :bow1:
