So I'm curious as to how some styles move from one technique/strike to the other. That and I'm bored at work and interested how other kung fu players work their footwork. My style/kwoon for example teaches moving from one stance to the other. We teach eight stances... Horse, Bow, Reverse Bow, Cat, Twist, Kneeling, fighting stance, Seven Star stance.. Basically monkey style footwork. We do incorporate other stances in our forms, such as swallow stance, false stance, crane and the like. Forward and backwards movement resembling a skip, the back leg moving forward before the front in an exploding forward movement, or stamping your energy into the ground to root to develop a more powerful rooted strike. My style I can speak for, but I'm curious as to Ony's take on Qi Xing's footwork. But mainly. I'm very interested as to how other stylists move. Is it a transition from one stance to another or is it more so based on stepping without emphasis on a particular stance in a strike?
I find I step without emphasis on particular steps, but when executing certain hand movements ill find myself in a bow stance or hanging stance, depending on what it is im trying to achieve. I find that when im dfending many straight line strikes ill see myself moving into a hanging stance, whereas with many arms locks, pulls and such like ill be settling into a bow or horse stance, (its hard for me to describe on the keyboard.) stepping to the side away from attacks ill step using cross steps, but again it depends on what it is my arms are doing.
Rat stepping... small, quick, angular, almost shuffling & never head on. Once the step is complete you transition to strike with the body ending the step. It can be high or low depending on "X" (you fill in the blank). As far as stances... normal... ding ji ma, sei ping ma, lok gwai ma, etc... run the southern medium & long arm styles gambit & you're pretty much there. Moving from one to another is "X" dependant & way too deep/vague/argueable to get into based on "X". :woo: :woo: :woo:
how about, crossing my feet and falling over? I find mental training (doing the motions in my head) is helping my coordination lol our lineage of wing chun has rescently switched to a plum flower stance, rather then the traditional pigeon toed stance. it allows some good rotational movements, almost like pivoting. http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp (scroll down the page, its at the bottom) Basically its alot of pick up your feet... don't drag them ... stance turn. then you kind of rotate or move with t-steps ... or do other types of steps. usually we practice this in arms reach from an opponent. so its not really designed to walk in the stance. but i imagine with the plum flower stance you could take wide steps and it would work well. alot of wing chunners drop their stance for a boxing stance, which defeats the purpose of their stance that their whole entire form gets their streangth from. i am against this, that is why so many videos online are a joke... none of the artists stick with their wing chun. if they want to be boxers, they should pick up boxing!
A bit of both. Obviously you need a good foundation depending on the technique you're going to attempt. I'm not strong enough, for example, to execute a number of my techniques if my stance isn't solid; ie. throws. At upper levels, especially with the animal styles, we definitely have to watch stances. Kinda hard to change levels, for example, if your footwork is sloppy and all over the place. Hard to throw that high kick if your stance is off-kilter. I think you see what I mean. We also spend a great deal of time working on footwork drills. Shuffling in and out, almost like a boxer; circle stepping; stepping off on 45 degree agnles, etc. It's very important to learn it, practice it, and apply it. Again, I'll use myself as an example. If I don't work on my footwork, I find myself in an ugly position when sparring. It's something I *have* to work on in order to spar effectively. And we do combine the two. Some days we work stances, some days we work footwork, but we have to learn to put it all together.
I think Mantis's footwork is ingeniously designed to allow maximum speed and mobility, while still putting the power of the legs into the strikes. In terms of stances, my branch of Mantis starts out with more purely Longfist-like stances and proceedes to modify them into the monkey footwork of Mantis in later forms. The empty stance becomes "tiger-straddling" stance, with more weight on the front foot, for example. Monkey stances basically mean you lift the heel of the second foot to move and apply pressure with the ball of that foot. Also, if you're moving forward, the body leans more forward and if you're moving back the body leans back. So, to advance, we spring off the back foot, but the front foot is first to move. The front foot lands heel before toe and slides into place smoothly. The back foot follows only an instant behind, stamping lightly with the ball of the foot as you set it down, heel off the ground. This allows you to take a really small, quick step, but still channel the power of the back leg to the upper body. However, I should say this is almost silent. We start out practicing in a more exaggerated manner such that it's like, "shuffle, stamp, shuffle, stamp," but eventually it becomes very light. I think Mantis footwork starts out a little heavy so you can get power generation, but then becomes progressively more light. For example, some relatively basic forms like Da Jia-zi have a lot of big, stamping footwork, but then more intermediate-advanced ones like Tanglang Chudong become much lighter. Also, Hong Kong Mantis is more "stampy" than others because GMs Luo and Huang modified it slightly. Another aspect of Monkey footwork is that small steps are very small, but big steps are REALLY big, like flying leap big. So, mostly very small to be nimble and confuse the opponent, but also must be able to cover big distance, either to advance or retreat. The "sparring" stance of Mantis is actually a very high ru-huan bu ("ring-entering stance"). Besides the monkey footwork, Mantis really likes the Jade Ring/Twist Stance and the 7 Star Stance. These are both really good for advancing on the opponent and supplementing the upper body attacks. The 7 Star stance can be used to attack the opponent's shin, held up to deflect an attacking shin, used to stamp the opponent's foot, or kicked behind the opponent's heel to trip him. The Jade ring stance is an another excellent way to enter (by angling your foot outward and stepping on the opponent's shin) that also is perfect for the twisting kind of power Mantis uses. That is, as you set one foot down, you twist and pull the back foot forward, stamping with the ball of that foot to give a twisting, explosive power to moves like yao-zhan ("waist-cutter"). Anyway, I could write about this for a very long time. Hopefully that gives a basic overview of Mantis footwork for whoever's interested.
only as applies to sparring I'm not much of a forms guy, so I can only describe the stuff as it applies to sparring. When you have a guard up in the modified heel-toe 'higher' horse stance used while fighting and striking with a straight punch with the back hand, the stance becomes a sort of high kneeling horse. When striking with the lead hand, we shuffle forward and then strike at the end of that movement. As for footwork, it's all shuffling movement and going in at an angle, never going straight into his centerline. There's also my tendency to hit someone in the back (where none of his hand strikes can get to me) with the shuffling footwork, but that isn't allowed and I always get in trouble for it. There's also an avoidance to not go in toward his 'strong' side, where both his weapons can reach you. There are retreating movements, but those are mostly shuffles back. There is definitely leg crossing while in punching and kicking range, but it comes at a much higher level of skill than I've seen, so we're always told to never do it. While I'm in punching or clinching range, I always widen and deepen my stance so I can withstand the incoming blows as well as power my blows, but I don't think that's necessarily recommended.
We have stance drills that go through all of our basic stances in a set sequence to develop leg strength and endurance. When fighting we don't use stances per say unless they are part of the technique being applied. For example I'll use a hill climbing stance for leg blocking throws or I'll enter with a steal a step stance then pivot into horse stance for a hip toss. For general movement and basic punches and kicks we stand in a normal relaxed posture wich is a lot like a high horse stance. Sometimes we shift a little forward or back into a high hill climbing or 4/6 stance. We have linear distance control drills that look a lot like fencing footwork. Then we have pivots, side steps and shuffle steps. When we do our foot work free style it looks alot like any generic style until you see the opportunity to apply a foot trap, sweep or thigh trip with a hand technique or execute a throw, then you see a quick flash of one of the postures, stance and all, from our forms.
We are similar to what 19thlohan described. However, if I can be rather blunt... stances are for beginners, it is the principles that matter. Although I will qualify to say that no matter how experienced one is, there are always times to go back to the basics including stance work to prevent from becoming sloppy and to have a starting point from which to build from. Notice I did not say stances are useless, because they can be quite valuable.
It depends on the style. With Mantis you'd be right. You learn the stances to train strength, flexibility and principles. As you progress the footwork becomes very much a function of what you need it to do (usually aiding an attack) and not jumping into picture-perfect postures. HOWEVER, some styles like Longfist, really use the stances even in sparring. The stances are used for their function in power generation, as well as aiding in the performance of actual moves, like throws and take-downs. Of course, they're still going to be more fluid and loose than in the forms, but they aren't discarded as mere training tools either. This clip has been posted before, and I know it's more of a demo than sparring, but I think it also demonstrates very well how you can actually use stances like a low horse. Active use of the stances like this is especially typical of Shaolin-related styles, like this one called Xinyi-ba. http://youtube.com/watch?v=rT3a6b11JlU Also, though Mantis comes up much higher than this in actual usage and may not use the stances so explicitly, there will also be moments like 19thLohan described where you can see the person actually kicking a foot out into a seven star stance, using a one-legged stance for a throw, attacking the opponent's calf with a jade ring stance, etc. So, we're still using the stances, just not bound by them.
With regards to sparring etc I personally dont find it comfortable to start or fight in specific stances, they are moreso used for transitions. I fight both orthodox and southpaw, but mainly southpaw. If im shuffling my back heel is off the floor, the rear leg pushes first to move forwards, to move back the front leg pushes. Moving left the right foot pushes and right the left foot pushes. Applying stances to sparring / real life situations I find unrealistic, it would be impracticle to drop into some stances before fighting / during fighting. Practicing stances for me provides with many strengths, physical strength, mental strength, core strength. Im not just disregarding stances though, as some movements require the stance to be effective!!!!!! Stances are the core, but they are unconcious / autonomous (at higher levels) movements, if your thinking about the stance your in at the time of application I think there is something going wrong.
We use semicircular steps from one stance to the next, we never hop around except in specific jumping moves.
hmmm... maybe I should clarify what I mean before we get too far into misunderstanding. I don't consider basics and stances to be training tools, nor do I think they should be discarded. What I mean by saying they are for beginners is that they are part of a foundation. From that you build on top of your foundation. With that said, it is up to each of us to progress passed the basics. So stances are not discarded, they become so integrated into our movements that we don't think about stances anymore but become formless just working off of principles and tactics. Of course we have form, it is just form without form :love: To put it another way, most foot work was developed to meet the requirements of a context and environment. For instance, boxing footwork is developed to work well in a ring, some footwork is developed for working in the narrow hallways of a castle, some in tall grass, some on boats, some on hills, etc. If one insists on keeping to a certain set of footwork and stances, you have to know for what context it is intended and works best in. If, for instance, Longfist keeps to their forms, how well would a Longfist fighter do fighting on the side of a muddy hill or in the narrow hallways of an apartment building? I don't know, but they should know by just trying it out for themselves. I think I've explained my thoughts on this more clearly, I hope. Form without form, or like Bruce Lee said, be like water... Edit: Triangular footwork and such is using principles, that's why it works so well. There are many ways to move using the concepts of a triangle, no one stance or footwork.
95% of the time (maybe more), we work from what we call a modified fighting stance-- 35 front/65 back stance. Feet parrallel and offset -- the big toe of the lead is in line with the heel of the rear. The back foot is turned to approximately 45 degrees. The front foot is slightly inward protecting the groin. Which side is forward is up to the individual. Basic foot work consists of step and slide (front initiates, rear follows), push step (springing off the back leg), and shuffle step (spring loaded, backleg moves first). Basic foot exchanges/direction changes work off of a sort of Filipino triangle theory. As the practioner gets better, the integrate more concepts out of animal systems, ba gua, and xing yi. - Matt
a different approach! Interesting! I do my shuffling in exactly the opposite manner. I move my lead leg first and back leg last to move forward and my back leg first to move backwards. Left leg first to move left and so on and so forth. Is there any appreciable speed differences between the two manners of moving? My instructors tell me our way of moving is faster, but I don't believe anyone anymore. I think stances are core, too, both for training and as a foundation. There's no WAY I'm going to do the whole wide and deep correct and looks great in forms horse stance when I'm fighting. No way. Unless I wanted to get beat up. The modified fighting stances should be automatic when you're doing them, with your actual active thoughts at a much higher level (strategy, analysis of opponent movements, etc).
My take is that you're talking about the same thing. The general rule of thumb is that in most cases, the foot closest to the direction. And if you are taking a small step (what we categorize as a step and slide) that can be managed by initiating from that foot. But if it's an explosive step, then you will need to push off the opposite foot as described, even though that isn't the first foot moving. - Matt
Speed IMO is dependent on the stylist, not the style. I believe that when your moving forward and the back leg comes forward first, its extremely confusing. When I was screwing around with my buddy a few months ago every single step forward I made attacking, he thought it was two because of the sound the skip step makes. Honestly I think when moving forward and moving your lead leg first just opens you up. I could be wrong, but thats just the way I see it. It doesn't work for me because I'm 6'8.. I take big steps. My small steps might be your medium steps if you're a foot shorter than I. So if I come in, believe its gonna be happening quick.
?? What do you mean by an explosive step? When you need to bridge a bigger gap than usual? When would such a step be used? Hmm, maybe when you need to get out of a situation faster than normal or when you need to angle in .. I need to think about that.
I personally think it doesn't make much sense to move the back foot forward first because it puts me off balance more. Whatever direction I'm moving in, the foot that's closest to that direction moves first. I think you are right that it covers more distance and is faster.
I do wing chun so we do four stances: 1) The YGKJM. Or something. It is not a fighting stance. It is for training. However, of course, as it can't be applied in fighting it helps if you know what it was training: It is for shearing goats. The goats on the boats. The Red Junks. Wing chun is by far the most dangerous style to have ever come from the famous Red Junk Goat Trade. The Ping Dynasty quaked. As did the goats. 2) The Infinitely Numbered Stance (INS). This is the real WC fighting stance. It is plainly all your weight on the back foot. That means 0/100 weighting. Kicking and avoiding sweeps to the front leg are therefore easy. Moving in any direction however is impossible without the Flat-foot Hop, which involves hopping flat-footedly. This is of course very well rooted, and devastating if you land on your opponent's foot. You could choose to move using the other variations of the immutable basic INS. There's the 30/70, the 60/40 and for the really daring, the 50/50. Everybody in WC believes this is the best stance. Moving in this stance usually involves the Back-foot Drag, designed to slow down the awesome punching speed in case it ignites the air around you; the Spring Surge - as you know 'wing chun' means 'always spring' and this is good advice! You should spring forward like an enraged bunny! And there's the Arthritic Shuffle, which involves shuffling forward like an old man for the best balance between rooting and floating. Have you ever seen an old man fall over?! Not without being pushed no doubt! There you are then! 3) The Antigrappling Stance. This is the stance for which WC is particularly famous: best described as being flat on your back. 4) The Foetal Stance. The basic WC groundwork stance designed to wear out your opponent. Your skull and spine should be conditioned through lots of practice in this stance.
