Who the hell do you think you are? Just who the hell do you think you are to speak to me like that? This is an open forum, which means that people are entitled to post on here if they wish to do so. Everyone on here knows who I am, and where I'm based, I don't feel the need to hide my identity as you obviously do. I have no real interest in denigrating the WKSA but, on the other hand, neither do I care what happens to it. I have far more important things going on in my life than to worry about that. As for 'describing' something in any particular way, I would say that if something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a DUCK!
And just to clarify the length of time situation: I started training with Master Kim (a recognised Kuk Sool Master) towards the end of 1973. My WKSA 1st Degree Black Belt certificate (No: 1-6041) is dated 10th November 1977, which means that I took four years to get to black belt. So how long are people taking nowadays then? Now I don't know at which point Master Kim was regarded to have left WKSA, as he didn't tell us, but after we found out that he had indeed left WKSA, in 1986, three of Master Kim's most senior instructors in the UK (me being one) chose to leave him and align ourselves directly with WKSA. Even if you only count my time with WKSA as the two-and-a-half to three years AFTER I left Master Kim - despite the fact that WKSA and In Hyuk Suh issued a black belt certificate in my name in 1977 - who are the people on here who have 20 or 30 times the experience of WKSA that I have? According to my maths, 20 times two-and-a-half equals 50 years! In any case, I also had more than one personal friend who remained in WKSA for many years after I left, who kept me up to date with what has been going on over the years since I left.
As much as I hate to assume (everyone, I'm sure, knows the OLD adage), I fear I'm going to have to do just that, in guessing that you (Renegade2) are not a USA citizen, or at least not an well-informed one. FWIW, Bill Clinton WAS impeached (by HoR) even if the Senate lacked the cojones to carry out the sentence. And since you like to dwell on such trivial details, let me point out that someone's opinions & remarks when illustrating certain things in an assertive manner, transforms them into assertions (note I didn't say, "allegations"). That was me poking fun at you when I said you'd be appeased by the term, "attacks" (that is, if I gathered the correct tone of your post #34 - which by your subsequent reply, it seems fairly certain I did). You are also twisting what I stated about the similarity between WKSA and well-known public figures. My point was that people (i.e. the 'public') tend to overemphasize negatives, while underplaying positives. Whether an 'entity' such as the WKSA (or its leadership) or an individual, people's views are the same. Furthermore, I might add that I chose to follow GM IHS and not an organization, whether franchised or not. If he decides to let politics interfere with the way things are handled, then choice is removed from the equation, at least IMO (I'll refrain from quoting Pledge #4 from the WKSA oath). What's wrong, does my fresh and open view of reality somehow threaten your security in life, that you would rather see me vanish from your own 'little world' instead of speaking my mind? Sorry if this outspokenness "rocks the boat"" too much for your liking (NOT!!). :evil:
I disagree i think real respect is always top down ( at first). students can't learn if they don't have a good example to learn from, and as a beginner there will be a period of time where it will be incumbent on the instructor to openly display a much higher level of courtesy and respect for the student to emulate, (which to most people will seem a little backwards). and with enough time, patience, and sincerity, the student will realize that they should FOLLOW the example set by the teacher. this cannot be forced !! ....regardless of the "culture" from which the art originates. this same scenario can be applied to the assoc/dojang relationship.
Not everyone, sir. UK-based, sure. And from your posts, it seems a fair assumption that you left the association long before I joined. But I am not up to speed on former-Kuk Soolin in Cambridge... or most of the other people who have taken on use-names here. It's fair to say that your identity isn't hidden, but neither is it obvious to all.
OK OK My maths is crap! ( Or maybe my typing) But it was you, Pugil who used the brevity of your time "directly under the WKSA" as an argument for not caring about what happens to them. You can't have it both ways! So you have been kept up to speed? So much so that you have to ask how long it takes these days to reach 1st dahn. Yes, you are really in the loop! LOL
I am aware of the impeachment of the said Mr Clinton, but from what we were able to gather from this side of the water, it seemed that the net result, was that his popularity (with the public) actually INCREASED as a result of his extra curricular activities! Which rather makes a nonesense of the argument in your later paragraph about the public overplaying negatives (in this instance at least). However, despite this, I do agree that this is usually the case. Does this mean that the fuss about the possiblt pitfalls of the franchise may fall into the category of negative things which are being overplayed, while the many benefits of membership of the WKSA are being underplayed? As for your last point...keep on rocking! LOL
Who do I think I am? I am one of the majority of people on here who belong to what you have called both a "Money making cult" and a "Mooney like rganisation". I dont know about anyone else, but, to be honest, I am offended by that. Are you surprised??? As for identity, we all have our reasons as I am sure your friend UnknownKJN would agree. REALLY?? Well for someone who has so much going on you sure spend a long time doing exactly that!! Well, there we have it guys. If you are in the WKSA then Pugil thinks you are (probably) a Moonie! Well, I guess both organisations WERE founded by a South Korean so that just proves it then! ROFL:evil:
Forgive me... Please forgive me for making any assumptions emberKSW. I personally don't much care for hiding behind pseudo names, in the same way that I don't really take much notice of people who write letters to the media and then ask for their names to be withheld from publication. I also don't have more than one sign-in name on these type of forums either. Unlike some! So that no one is in doubt, I will clarify the situation for you all: My name is Ollie Batts, and I was in Kuk Sool here in Cambridge (UK) from 1973 to 1989. When I left WKSA I was told by Master Barry Harmon that they did not accept my resignation, but would rather keep the door open to me should I ever decide to return. At the time when I left, I had recently been awarded my 3rd Degree Black Belt, alongside Philip Holmes and Richard Roper. After I left, the Cambridge Club floundered somewhat before being re-established in the very capable hands (and feet) of Philip Hinchcliffe, who has taken the club onto new levels I believe. When I visited WKSA HQ in San Francisco in 1986 I was very well-treated by everyone I came into contact with - not least Kuk Sa Nym, his very charming wife, and the Harmons. I even stayed in Kuk Sa Nym's house, ate at his table, and amused a very young George whilst I was there. When I chose to leave WKSA it was mainly due to the constant bickering going on, and the fact that I was informed of the WKSA policy of not being allowed to cross-train in other systems. One of my senior students at the time, who left shortly after me, was told that they should not continue to train with me - even on nights when Kuk Sool training was not available locally. That was the thing that made up her mind to also leave WKSA. I've been a member of MAP for around six years and I must be averaging about one post per week over that time. So it's not really true to say that I have been on some kind of anti-WKSA mission of any kind over the last six years, let alone the last 20! The proposed Franchise Agreement won't affect me, unless I were to want to come back - which is of course highly unlikely. So my thoughts on whether it is a good thing or bad thing are not in any way relevant. I hope that clarifies things? Yours in Kuk Sool, and the martial arts generally, Ollie Batts
Actually, we see eye to eye on this topic, as my point was that respect needed to come from the top down as well as the bottom up. And not to bash anyone's cultural roots, but sometimes this does get overlooked, and why I used the big bold print. I'm reminded of something I've seen occur more than once (with different families); a baby slapping a parent's face and laughing mercilessly. Not because the baby enjoyed inflicting pain, but rather due to a misinterpretation of the contorted look (which is kinda funny looking) on the face of the parent as a reaction to being slapped so forcefully. Respect for the lack of experience and also for the frailty of the baby prevents the parent from slapping back (the normal reaction if the perpetrator wasn't a baby). I know that LOVE and other aspects are involved, but my point was about respect, so let's keep on track, shall we? Of course, the parent ALWAYS manages to communicate that such behaviour is unacceptable, just in a way that RESPECTS the difference between an unknowing, fragile baby and a healthy adult who's well aware of all the circumstances and repercussions. So like shimajiro, I believe that respect should come first from those in the position of authority. Otherwise you're left with nothing but blatant subservience. As for all the other BS being posted on this thread, I'll just say that it borders on infringement of the MAP TOS. Ad hominem attacks and flame wars get us nowhere (even if providing a little levity for those not directly involved :evil.
Well, backto the topic! A Dream Martial Arts Association. Difficult to quantify isn't it? Should the association only be involved with one particlular MA or allow members to train in more than one style? I guess that depends upon what you want. And of course it may change from one year to the next. EG when we start training in KS it seems perhaps, that it contains everything that we could want from a MA. As we dig deeper though it may be that there are other areas of training that we would like to pursue. So maybe a dream association would be one which had instructors from any and every MA available to its school owners so that they could learn and impart knowledge from every available MA, which would encourage the students to stay withing the org rather than seek training elsewhere. However, if the students could not find such training then perhaps they should be allowed, or even encouraged to seek it out for themselves. Is this practical? As regards to what school owners or stdents would be prepared to pay for it and how such payments should be made up, that is impossible to say. We all ahave our own view. Sometimes it seems that the testing fees we currently pay are very, very expensive. On the other hand the membership fees for individual students are very very cheap considering they are just a single payment for life. So maybe a better way would be for HQ to charge a small annual fee for each student, like most MA orgs do, and then have much lower testing fees for dahn grades? As forn freedon over the curiculum, that is tricky. If we are to have certificated grades, then surely it has to be done to some kind of consistent syllabus? Which of course makes it hard to see how the mixing of other styles I mention above could be fitted in. So do we continue to test in our "core" subject of KS and then add certification for other training? The certificates could be a bit like university degrees, IE a degree in KS with Judo or KS with escrima etc etc. Does that sound do-able? Does anyone belong to an association which already does that?
I don't think that to object strongly to being described as being part of a moonie like organisation, or a member of a money making cult (or was that sect?) can be described as an insult Unknown. Just tit for tat thats all. LOL But I don't think our Mr OB belongs to any organisation. He runs his own thing and good on him for that at least. But what about the rest of my post, any comments on that or are you enjoying the "levity" too much?
It's all good, Renegade2. The only problem I see is that all that stuff you mentioned will NEVER happen within the bounds of WKSA, that's all. :dunno:
Organisations Yes, you are correct in that I 'run my own thing', although I am affiliated with a number of organisations that I do not have to pay a fee of any kind to [e.g. MKG International and the British Council of Kali Eskrima Arnis Instructors], and a couple of others who I pay a tiny amount to each year (the Great Britain Savate Federation being one [which I am a co-founding member of in any case], and Sombo UK. None of those organisation have any say, or sway, in how I conduct my day-to-day affairs at Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts® [est 1989], however, other than when it comes to such things as competition rules, etc., in their particular art. As to... let's use the term 'McDojo organisations'... I see WKSA as being in very real danger of being seen by outsiders as becoming (or having become) such an organisation - even if the members view things differently. And let's not forget that loyal followers of Cults and Moonie-like organisations are also extremely loyal to their organisation, even to the point of becoming disassociated from their families and former friends. You only have to look at some Taekwondo off-shoot organisations [I won't name any openly on here] to see what I mean about cult-like and with their focus being almost entirely on making money above all else. It would be sad to see WKSA head in that same sort of direction don't you think?
I am certain you are right about that UnKnown, but this thread is supposed to be about our "dream" association. Not about the WKSA (unless that fits the bill for you...which at present I doubt!:evil There are plenty of other threads discussing the rights and wrongs of the various "happenings" within that org. So out of respect for the originator of this thread, I will refrain form pursuing that line any further and apologise for de-railing it somewhat previously. But how about it? Maybe this IS a lighthearted thread (fantasy MA, fantasy football!) But...maybe by discussing what we would REALLY like to see, someone somewhere may just change something to our liking. OR someone else may come up with a new idea! So share your thoughts on the real topic of this thread.
My thoughts on a Dream Association: It should be based in one's own Country, and have its own Constitution. But that national organisation may itself also be affiliated to, and recognised by, another international organisation. For example: The Great Britain Savate Federation (GBSF) looks after the affairs of Savate in Great Britain but is itself a member organisation of the International Savate Federation (FIS). For a reasonable annual membership fee, the national organisation should provide its member clubs with student handbooks/licences, and member-to-member and public liability insurance cover, and have provision in place for individual instructors who are involved in teaching (or assisting in teaching) to have Professional Indemnity insurance cover and have access to CRB checks too. The national organisation should also be responsible for organising and sanctioning national training events and competitions, etc. It will also be responsible for drawing up guidelines for individual clubs who wish to run their own events, and may also be asked to approve certain types of events which are not regarded as being part of the national organisation's scheduled calendar for the year. Member clubs, and their instructors, should ideally also have a voice at Executive Committee Annual General Meetings, as well as receiving help, guidance and support (not financial) if asked for. Otherwise, the policy should be one of non-interference as much as possible.
Well said, Pugil. I especially liked the amended comment: It seems that far too few MA organizations are run in a democratic fashion. Even if a "one member, one vote" type of set-up isn't adhered to, I would prefer some semblance of democracy which would allow for control and direction by the majority instead of a being run like a tyrannical dictatorship [LOL]. And should the the majority ever take a turn you strongly disapprove of, you can always 'drop out' of the organization if that issue becomes a "deal-breaker" for you. I also agree with the non-interference policy, but OTOH I can easily understand where a group like WKSA, which is trying to steer clear of a MMA image, would want to exert a say over their member schools (in the name of standardization/quality control). If you don't meet the standards, then whatever group or organization is issuing membership should have a right to deny acceptance. And about this: Why not call a spade, a spade? Unless you were referring to some other group besides CHUNG MOO DOE? I strongly urge anyone to click the embedded link above if unfamiliar with CMD (it goes to the freedom-of-mind resource center created by Steve Hassan). And due to some litigation and bad PR a decade ago, this group has started using different names for the art it "teaches" and yet another reason to simply click the link and read everything posted there (or, if you want to see the listed citations). But for those who hate doing all that, here's a small excerpt:
CMD Now...THATS a cult! I dont think that anyone could sensibly accuse IHS of running such an organisation. As for a democratically run MA org, I CAN see the benefits, but also the down side. There is, as UnKnown indicated, the risk that left entirely to the whims of one man one vote, that quality control could become very difficult and the org could become something completely different from what the founders intend. It si also possible for a small group to "hijack" the org, becaus e as with so many other groups, only relatively few members would take an active role in deciding policy. Therefore it does not take a huge efort to marshal support for your own ideas. Maybe having an initial constitution laid down would help to prevent this? I think that anyone who sets up a MA org whether it be an international organisation or a single dojahng wil want to retain overall control of quality and teaching methods etc. IHS has been quoted as saying that the WKSA is definitely NOT a democracy! It does not necesarilly follow however that he is a tyranical dictator either! For those school owners out there I guess it is a bit like having your black belts deciding on the syllabus and training of students against your wishes. In most cases I suggest, you won't let it happen. And why? Because it's YOUR school, just like the WKSA is the Suh families org. It wasn't creates by a group of like minded people, it was created initially by one person, who is still around to oversee it. I guess he just wants to keep it as he intended, and attract like minded people rather than those who wish to change it. However, I do agree that it should be posible to belong to an organisation without being restricted from other MA activities. That may have been acceptable years ago in Korea but not in modern day UK and USA. As for the UK, there is probably a European directive somewhere making it illegal anyway! Pugil, I like the idea of an Org based in your own country. Would a legally formed "branch" of a foreign group, which was allowed to conduct its own affairs, fill that need as well do you think. (No, I am not referring to the WKSA)
Thanks all for geting back on track, I'm of a minority mindset as far as corriculum goes .I think, I realy don't mind the Org. Controling the corriculum... That is what I think its focus should be on. How else can we gather and compeat or train as one martial art? FEES ! Well maby a School fee of a couple hundred a year and student fees of the $ 10 a year is not so bad...however the escalating BB "testing" fees are a little much. Maby a $ 50 certification fee per belt level, and 1 School owner mandatory 2-3 day training seminar pr / yr( offered twice a year). @ $ 200 wouldn't be so bad, just to keep all on the same page as far as new teq etc. Same style uniforms same training standards no problem. the org, involvment should stop at that I suppose.
