You should all be ashamed

just admit it guys...

You all love the drama. SKH vs Soke. Who'se the bad guy?

Anyway. Thanks for clarifying my post to everyone. I never said I had the best grammar although it's pretty darn good. I tend to type, and speak, thought to mind exactly. It saves a lot of bs and it works in most situations. Maybe not this one.

To the SKH camp: Admit it. His dvds are really really bad. Maybe I just didn't understand them....

Oh yeah. I never once made fun of SKH's wife. So don't point the finger at me if indeed you were pointing it at me.

To the Bujinkan camp: It seems like you guys are trying to defame him for whatever reason. How many Judan(how high of a rank is that?) have left the Bujinkan because of boredom, babies, girlfriends, wives, CAncun? WHy aren't they getting burned like SKH.

Maybe SKH, feeling like he contributed so much to the world couldn't stand being around others who were as respected as him. Pre-internet he was the biggest dog around. Now there are many famous Bujinkan instructors that have their own websites and what not. Heck, when I first say Richard Van Donk's website, I thought to myself how it was the same as SKH's accept for the fact that RVD puts terms like "Soke" and "Bujinkan" and TAijutsu" on his website. THink about yourselves in this position. You have this person who is the same as royalty(Soke HAtsumi) commending you and praising your work. He even visits you in Ohio and brings more fame to your name. Now you're not just the lonely white dude(sorry to be using racial remarks as some get offended) but now you have the backing of the Japanese grandmaster. You leave Japan to make money and have a family while in your absence, others embark on your same journey. Accept this time it was easier cause they knew the exact location of where Soke lived, his name, what to expect. I would be BITTER for a while, maybe not forever. Now you're not the only one who knows some of this super secret art. In order to rebuild your self-esteem you need to break away from the source and move on. Kelly Clarkson, from American Idol, doesn't acknowledge her roots publicly. She's very talented but would the world have cared had she not become the first ever American Idol.

I don't remember who said this but yeah, you're right. I was dumb for buying more of his products after my initial disappointment. I admit it. I was hoping to see a progression as the monthly dvds went on and on. No thought/physical progression came along.

 

This is only my opinion, I mean no disrespect to SKH, but I agree somewhat with what he said.

 

Sorry for the double post.

If someone starts to lose hard earned respect, which he is used to, things such as the foremost western instructer comes in, to preserve the "respect".

 

Have they done anything to deserve it? Steve is the subject of attention right now because he is trying to paint a picture of him as a loyal student of Soke's when that is not the case. And when his problems are pointed out, his representatives and him go on the attack. Anyone who has passed along the information from Soke has been attacked, and even Soke is being painted in the same light as Steve to cover up Steve's misdeeds.

If someone leaves the Bujinkan, then more power to them as long as they don't try to continue to profit off of a supposed conection to Soke and conduct themselves in an honourable manner. Steve fails in this regard.

 

I do not agree.
Feeding your ego and having everyone think you're the best is not what the bujinkan is about.

being respected is fine, but a person should also be humble.

 

See, if Mr K would have let me continue it would be dead and closed by now!!!

 

Grimjack posted

No its not an attack on the Bujinkan, or an attempt to cover up any misdeeds. Why is it when accusations are levelled at party B by Party A, and party B states that party A are also guilty of the same, Party A says Party B is attacking them.

What is being pointed out here Grimjack is that when we are talking about money in martial arts. i.e the merchant debate its always seems as though Mr Hayes is slammed for earning money, whereas Dr Hatsumi who probably earns and charges far more money than Mr Hayes is never accused of the same thing.

Now personally I have no problem with people making money from martial arts as long as they are doing a good service. After all we pay mechanics, dentists, surveyors good money for their time so why not martial arts instructors.

In fact in todays world with professional gymnasiums, health suites and alternative health surgeries the days of training in an old school hall are coming to a close. I actually believe people want the modern facilities, and the only way one can have such a facility is to be in it for the money. And people will judge your martial art not by what it is you teach but by how professional you are. So as long as the money you are making from martial arts does not become primary to the martial art you are teaching and fail to deliver 100%, No problem.

So do I have a problem with Hatsumi making money. No, in fact the more money that Dr Hatsumi can make the better as its better for the future of this art, but don't accuse and use the money making issue to throw scorn on others for doing the same when money is pouring into Noda like rivers.

You know this whole thing is a bit like Mcdonalds saying that Burger King are only selling burgers for the money.

Gary Arthur

 

Because Soke is not guilty of the things that Steve is. He never went to the extent of selling the art that Steve did. Steve was the one that tried to keep the money coming to him by telling folks they could not go see Soke on their own. Steve was the one to go out and teach at multiple seminars, through DVDs and such when he was not very qualified to teach. And Steve was the one that has been taking money for people in the understanding that they were paying to be part of the Bujinkan when they were not.

 

Posted by Grimjack

From Musubi July 1994

By Jack Hoban

Hm, Bringing Dr Hatsumi to the USA for other people to sample his teachings, allowing people to sleep in Mr Hayes house so as not to miss anything, lots of private training sessions so people could get the maximum out of it.

Sure seems like someone trying to keep people away from the source.

From History and Traditions 1981

OK he doesn't give the actual address, but then it would not be right for him to do so, but for anyone who wants to find Hatsumi Sensei it shouln't be too hard to find the Soke.

Also didn't Mr Hayes also bring Tanemura and Manaka over to the US to host seminars in the early days. Yep he could have left them in Japan, ran his own seminars, kept the location of Dr Hatsumi secret. But he didn't.

Sure he might have suggested that due to the fact that in the 80s there really was nothing in Japan for people that were thinking about visiting, a far cry from the set up today, and therefore it might be good to spend some time getting the basics down first, but this is hardly stopping people going to Japan.

Or even invited to do so by people like Peter King and Keith Lebihan here in the UK.

How long have DVDs been out in the states.
In 1995 when DVDs started to come out, Mr Hayes had been training for 20 years, so i think he was qualified, and in 20 year prior to that the only tapes i remember Mr Hayes bringing out were the Night warriors series (two tapes).

Wheres this from. The people that have joined the Bujinkan through Mr Hayes have received Bujinkan memberships and grades. When one joins the To-Shin Do course there is no mention that you are automatically a member of the Bujinkan.

There is no lie here Grimjack. I know you keep digging for one in an attempt to throw mud at Mr Hayes. When will your attacks on Mr Hayes stop?

Gary Arthur

 

Garth, Stop posting! its not helping anyone!

 

This is starting to sound like a scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail...

"Oh but I was enjoying this thread"
"Get on with it!"
"Yes GET ON WITH IT!"
"Wicked wicked Naughty Garth"

Actually Garth, you raised some good points then.

 

No, he told people that Soke was not accepting personal students and such. If you wanted to get to Soke, you had to go through him. He was the person who could get Soke to come the states and if you were not on Steve's good side, you were out of the picture. The same goes for others like Manaka and Tanemura- you had to bow at Steve's alter to get to them. There might have been a lot more and better trained teachers in the Bujinkan if they had not been told that they would not be welcome in Japan.

And Steve does not have the qualifications to teach much of what he does. I have seen him with a sword in his hand. And I have trained in Japan with the sword. I can see Steve doing things the teachers in Japan are telling me are bad habits.

Oh, and it seems like the reason the tablet was taken down is because Steve has not even been a member of the shidoshikai for years!!! Nor has he been a member. He could not be thrown out by getting ten judans together because he was not a paid member according to some now. So how the heck did he get those certificates and such? Perhaps a bit of trickery on his part?

And Soke himself said it, he has not been a teacher of Bujinkan for years. So the impression that he gives of being one is a lie.

 

Grimjack said:-

Could you perhaps provide some reference sources to back up these claims? The only place I could find anything of this nature was on the page "About the Author" in Ninjutsu History & Tradition".

You see this passage appears to back up what you are saying at first glance but couldn't it be argued that it's true? At least for the time that this particular book was written (1981)? If I went to Japan right now as a beginner and wanted to start training would I be a student of Hatsumi sensei or would I be directed towards the classes of his various students?

You see I've got a rather extensive collection of the old Shadows of Iga newsletters (first Ninja Realm, later Musubi Journal) dating back to 1982 and I've yet to find anything along the lines of your claims. I've got editorials informing everybody of the creation of the Bujinkan Honbu card and how to ensure they get hold of theirs. I've got interviews where Hayes is telling his students about the opening of Hatsumi sensei's new Honbu Dojo and telling them to get over to see it for themselves. I actually do have an editorial as well which explains the hardships that people might face if they think they can just rock up to Noda-shi and expect to train. Bear in mind that that editorial was written in the 1980s and could therefore be pretty much true. I knew people who went over to Japan in the late 1980s who never had any training time at all. The infrastructure that we take for granted these days really did not exist back then.

 

This thread keeps catching my eye, and I think "crikey! I should be ashamed", so I look in it and it turns out to be about something I know nothing at all about!
So not all of us should be ashamed...

 

Actually, forget what I just typed.

I've reopened this to allow a rebuttal from Mr. Cole.

Mr. Cole, you have the podium.

 

Final thoughts

It is difficult to provide "reference sources" for the idea that Mr. Hayes TOLD people these things. I personally have heard this from people who first moved to Japan against Stephen's recommendation, such as Mark O'Brien and Paul Nolasco.

When both went to Japan (separately), and approached Soke about learning the art, they expressed their pleasure/surprise with the open-door treatment they received. Soke's response to them was, "Why would you think any different?" To which they replied, "Because Hayes said that you are not accepting students." Soke was not pleased that Stephen was putting words in his mouth, which is one of the reasons why Soke has encouraged for years the foreigners in Japan to go out and teach in other countries.

You would be accepted as a student learning in the dojo, just as I was. I started training with Hatsumi-sensei when still a green belt, which refutes the idea that Hatsumi-sensei does not accept new students or non-Shidoshi.

Literally, every year (if not every month) since Mr. Hayes spent his month in Japan, there have been individuals who have moved to Japan and become the students of Soke: Paul Nolasco, Mark O'Brien, Anthony Netzler, Andrew Young, Regina Brice, Mark Lithgow, Michael Pearce, Michael Loonam, Duncan Mitchell, Andrew Macdonald, Ed Lomax, Sean Askew, Paul Masse, Tim Bathurst, Luke Molitor, Craig Olson, Bruce Appleby, Doug Wilson, Robin Doenicke, Rod Hodgkins, Shawn Grey, Anthony Brien, Greg Alcorn, Pete Reynolds, Phil Legare, Danny Fletcher, and many, many others whose full names escape me at this time (Nigel, Kenji, Peter, Jason, etc.).

To argue that someone who spends a month there is somehow automatically a "private student," yet someone who spends 20+ years there (on downward) is not a "private student" is not cool.

Soke's training has always been available to all comers.

Do not rely on others to determine whether you should access these teachings. The soup starts to get watered down the further removed one is....

If at all possible, try to make the trip and see Soke on his home turf, doing what he loves.

Thanks for letting me add the final words to this thread. Feel free to lock it up again if you wish.

Cheers!

-ben

 

Thanks Ben for taking the time to make such a comprehensive post.

I'd also like to point out that Grimjack and I had a productive chat by PM too.

Now quick! Mr K! Lock it up while things are quiet!