Sounds about right to me another take on it was that the Yangs scuppered their art on purpose to stop those wide eyed White boys form steeling their thing. What ever YCF reasons for changing the form he made it to easy to change, so every man and his dog created their own form. cheers LM great post with all the different stories we maybe able to find common ground amongst them to patch some truth together.
"Sounds about right to me another take on it was that the Yangs scuppered their art on purpose to stop those wide eyed White boys form steeling their thing." While the former general tradition of keeping CMAs for only Chinese is well known it seems unlikely that worrying about round eyes would have played a factor in YCF's day.It wasn't until the latter half of the 20th century that occidentals were studying TC,or CMAs in general. One of my hounds used to watch me practice form,but was uninterested in my bag work,etc.Suppose he was thinking of creating his own "Dog Style TC" ?
This is the kind of pre occupation with form that can be problematic in tc . As if a form with bells on, furry dice and a spoiler will take your fighting level to the next stage or something. No! It's not fancy extras forms need but good jibengong (basics). A form with the right basics won't be harmed by a change of sequence or a few postures left out. But I'll bet those don't sell ++ dvd units or grabs student attention like sexy original Yang Lu Chan forms!
I'm not preoccupied with the form, but you are right, it is the basics that you need to learn to enable you to fight. when I was learning Kung Fu all of the students whether white belt through to black had one thing in common, when they spared it turned into kick boxing, they couldn't use there art to fight. So many people have to learn more than one art to try and fill in the gaps, i don't think you should need too, if you learn your art well off an instructor who learnt their art well, there should be no gaps.!!! My form will take me to the next level as you put it and further, because it's teaching me so much, if I took moves out I would only be robbing myself.
Funny though that from all the WTBA clips floating around we are unable to watch the great art in any realistic sparring. The response basically being - too deadly! At least "kickboxing" as you put it was something practical and useful your classmates could rely on and know they could use to effect an outcome if it went pear.. not something you can say for all that dim mak caper The WTBA is so fond of, dare i say pre occupied with. Of all Earles clips why is then that none whatsoever show him using tai chi chuan to beat someone up who is trying realistacally to beat him up. i think it is because it will shatter once and for all the allusions and expectations of what will be seen. " the great art" rather than " kickboxing" is what everyone wants to see or expects will be there right..? I think he wouldn't look significantly different to most people sparring "kickboxing". Something him and his students are unprepared to stomach right now in my opinion. But I'm prepared to be shown that i'm wrong, welcome it - just bring on the proof in the pudding. It can give you things to work on in other formats other than form - that take you somewhere further. I'm sceptical the form is taking you to any further fighting level at all in of itself. There's good things forms can do for you or give you we can talk about, but let's not get carried away eh. It's not as if everything that can be 'tai chi' has to be in the form you practice, surely? The external moves are one aspect of form sure. Happily though i don't think you'll be robbing yourself of the point of doing your form if someone left some moves out for you.. The moves that will really matter for you, you won't learn how to use them doing them repeatedly in the form. And isn't that the point. I'm saying this because I'm not completely unfamiliar to training under this kind of mindset, but i see it now as almost a case of reverse engineering. We are on the whole approaching training the opposite way of the originators. people learnt the fighting then form. Now we do the form and try to extrapulate fighting from it. And this can lead to it becoming and end to itself for some. you are almost saying it yourself. the belief that the better you know and practice a form you fighting ability will rise through that - rather than the other things you really must do to fight better. And those things really come down to other things than form. Right?
I can't be bothered to banter words with you any longer. If you want to see WTBA students Training and hitting each other come to leicester. If you want to see Dim Mak or feel it or what ever come to Leicester. If you want to see us use our Art against street type attacks come to leicester. The classes are open to anybody, nobull, no inner circle rubbish, everything is open. I'm not challenging you just offering you an invitation. It would be much quicker to show you that try and explain everything with words. We have different views which is great, you want proof I practice the proof everyday. come to Leicester, Please
It's not explanations with words I'm after. If you practice as you say then filming a few minutes of it won't be any problem at all. What you would have me participate in would be no different would it, so why come to Leicester if I can just see a bit of it beforehand. Then i can decide if it is worthwhile to make the trip. I have Paul Breacher practically on my doorstep, so why come to Leicester for the WTBA ? Even Eli is closer - St. Albans I believe. But I haven't seen or read anything training/practice wise from these people or the WTBA at large that would make me think it worthwhile to go classes with them ( though i went to a weapons seminar some years ago at the request of a classmate..). Petrol don't come too cheap these days you know - and my time, well you can't put a price on time when your girl whines at you for going off at weekends to training or seminars for hours when you should be spending time with her! One step applications I'm not really after, dead drills I'm not after. Forms? no thanks. Someone from the WTBA show me some fighting/sparring already.. For such a martially orientated organization (and relatively large) that blaims YCF for losing the martial in Yang style, why should that be a problem ? It shouldn't even be an issue really. If members where training "properly" and with the real tai chi effectiveness claimed, one or two clips would be no problem at all - in fact what could be better! you know the proof you practice everyday to paraphrase you. You know the ones that are seen as good tai chi chuan fighting/sparring and not "just kickboxing". If people in the tai chi community can't even come to some common agreement on what that is/would look like, what hope is there moving forward for tai chi as a martial art i wonder. Film a few minutes that represents the culmination of your/ your groups training and put it up. And i will in turn put up a clip of me "Chinese kickboxing" and we can compare our training methods and have a honest appraisal and discussions of what we are seeing. Not about how good or not so good anyone is - we all have a ways to go I'm sure, i know i do. Me coming up there and getting spanked by you or your teacher doesn't prove anything - not that i mind a spanking! It's about showing what you train to do application wise is realistically achievable in a sparring/ fighting format and not simply theoretical. i understand you can't do everything you could do to eachother - but we're all in the same boat in that regard. You never know, might be worthwhile? Just meet me half way, that's all I'm asking.
What does hitting eachother prove ? that i can hit you and you can hit me - well that is easy my friend, who needs training! Well tell me in what scenario it would be that i could see it work. i asked you before and didn't really get a satisfactory answer. will i be defending myself like sparring for example ? One step sparring type attacks and applications. again no, too easy. i can get that - good and bad - at a lot of places. No need to come all the way to Leicester. i'm certainly not against getting to Leicester some time if i can - you sound like a nice chap, and no doubt we'de get on just fine and have some good training and fun. but how much easier could you make it by just giving me the simple easier things I'm asking, rather than make me come all the way up there to check out your class.
