My wrists are 'okay' with most punches but they hurt when I hook. I've been punching the heavy (sand) bag thinking maybe they'll just get stronger with practice. But so far they still hurt. I'm hitting straight and my fist is clenched as hard as possible. What can I do to fix this gigantic problem???
Welcome to MAP. Bruce Lee said, "there are no wrists in boxing." Do you use hands wraps? I would say this is essential, especially when hitting a heavy bag. The other question is, "do you hit with a vertial or horizontal fist?" Have you had a coach examine your technique, because there must be a flaw somewhere? It would seem that your hand is not alingned with your forearm on contact with the bag. Here are some links worth reading. http://heavyfists.com/sore-wrists-heavy-bag http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=346
While not the best clip I've ever seen, this shows how to utilise the body for hooking power, as well as good wrist alignment. http://www.perfectpunch.tv/how-to-throw-the-perfect-hook-punch/
Not such a good idea to punch a bag filled with sand bro,use something softer so you can let the punch go and sink in to the bag. Play with the palm down and palm facing you position to see what is best for you,make sure your wrist is straight and not bent and that your elbow and fist are level or the elbow is lower than the wrist not higher.
Without actually seeing a video of you hitting the heavy bag, it's difficult for us to say. It sounds like a form issue to me though, as that's usually the main culprit.
well my twon trainers never said anything, I have training tonight I will make sure tell him the problem and ask him to watch me and thanks for all the replies people!
If I land with a horizontal fist I get wrist-pain (probably because my technique is too circular to be fair) so I use a vertical fist. I find it more forgiving if I don't land 100% right. That said I've got very weak (and mobile) wrists so I'm not saying what I do is "right". It just feels better to me.
Over the years of teaching people to punch I've found that many people have trouble punching with a palms down style hook. For many people that just come into it... it really plays havoc with their shoulder on the side punching with it. This is the hook that many a boxing coach rode us to death about. It's also the style of hook that nak muays like Teelek Fairtex use and he was constantly on me to use... if he caught me not using it he reminded me by hooking me with it. Ouch. I learned. Boy did I learn. Both have their uses... but I tend to prefer the palms down hook punch. I find it gets around the guard easier for whatever reason. Firecobra brings up an interesting topic and that's the position of the elbow and the shoulder during the punch. I prefer my chin tucked behind my shoulder so my elbow almost just as high as my shoulder... otherwise you will get countered all day long in a boxing gym. Less so in Muay Thai but in boxing... jeebus they look for that low shoulder/elbow and lock in lazer sites on it.
The hook punch is very unforgiving on the wrists if your alignment is off. The previous posts should cover most of this for you. Personally I like the elbow raised to almost in-line with the shoulder, and the wrist/hand in line with the elbow. The straighter it is, the better. You could try practicing for a bit by holding your arm in this position and just going through the hooking motion with your body (ie - try to keep your arm as still as possible, let the body twist the hook in fully). Wraps and a good pair of gloves help give a lot of extra support to the wrist. I too suffer from wrist pain with the hooks sometimes. I have always used the palm down method to hit, but when working on the pads sometimes I adjust to the vertical fist as it is a lot less stressful to my wrist. Still trying to figure out why this is, as I really do prefer throwing horizontal fisted. The alignment for the hook needs to be drilled a lot. Its one thing to align it right when you're just doing hooks and are concentrating 100% on them, but its very different to get that alignment right when you're using that same hook amidst many other moves.
Slips correct most in fact almost all Nak Muays in Thailand hook with the palm down,the exception for me was Sagat Porntawee who used the palm facing towards the chest style hook,mind you he Boxed for a WBC Boxing title as well as being a Muay Thai champion. Personally It hurts my shoulder(again as Slip said) when I hook with the palm down however I can connect well with the knuckles hooking like that.
Interesting stuff. As long as I keep my hand in front of me, I haven't had shoulder problems with any hooks. If the hand ends up too far to my side, then I can feel the impact going into my shoulder instead of my into the ground. For the vertical hook, we call that the slicing hook as it can slice across the side of the head/jawline. I find it works best when my hand is lower (around hip level). It is a further away hook and if the thumb is put on the side of the fist, the palm side of the hand can be used (bear paw fist) to slap the side of the opponent's head. I also call this the MMA hook because it is seen in MMA with the likes of Chuck Liddell. This hook is done with almost no pivot in the arm. The arm is bent and the elbow is aligned behind the hand towards the target, so when the punch starts to the finish of the punch the elbow travels fairly straight. Example below: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU64CwmYc"]Learn to Punch like Chuck Liddell.... - YouTube[/ame] For the palm down hook, this is a very close in hook. You will have a lot of strain on the shoulders if you try to hit something too far away with this hook. I was told to make sure to move in to elbow range to throw this hook. This hook is done with the hand the height of the target (unlike the other vertical hook that comes from hip level). So a palm down hook to the head has the hand at almost head level to start with. This hook has a pivot point in the front of the forearm. I describe it as throwing an elbow strike forward but instead of hitting with the elbow, you hit the side of a target with your fist, palm facing down. A quick and powerful hook, very little strain on the shoulder, IME. Example below: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4hgcUu0x58"]Pro-Star Mixed Martial Arts, How to Throw Boxing Hook Punch - YouTube[/ame] Note: the hook is called the #3 punch and you can fast forward to around 3:30+ seconds in the video to see that it is a close in punch with the elbow kept down and then whipped up with the pivot point in the front of the forearm much like an elbow strike but hitting with the fist. So in a nutshell, vertical fist hook for longer range and start the hook with the hand lower, about hip level. Palm facing down hook for very close range, keep the hand up but the elbow down. The elbow rising as you hook much like an elbow strike.
Very nice posts by both Firecobra and Rebel Wado! Good stuff guys! It's great to see this type of stuff making up the posts at MAP! @ Firecobra - Unfortunately it's so hard to keep track of the fighters and trainers in Thailand. The language barrier is still pretty big in my estimation. There simply just isn't that much news that makes it out to the western world about the trainers and techniques. It's something I wish there was some sort of central library on. No matter how long I've been involved with the sport and lived in Thailand I'm still finding out interesting bits that just surface out of nowhere. As you point out there is a big difference in nak muays who have fought in boxing as well. Their punching is often quite a different animal. Though in some ways that gap is closing... because western style boxing is massively popular in Thailand (some days I'd struggle to find a Muay Thai bout on tv but could flip through a half dozen channels of western boxing!) and as Muay Thai has crept into the western consciousness and promotions they've had to adapt to deal with western style boxing punches. A great example of that is Buakaw Por Pramuk who wasn't exactly a big puncher early on in K-1 and then went away came back absolutely smoking with Western style punching. It was a big big change in his style. No doubt... to be able to contend with the punchers that he was dealing with. On the flip side is Somrak Sor Kamsing who brought his western boxing to Muay Thai to great effect. Making it a treat to watch because it's such a different animal. @ Rebel Wado- That second video is very concise. He's got a classic boxers hook. The old saying carries a lot of weight: "be able to throw a hook in a phone booth" That is the short hook - which is best thrown palms down. Not that it cant work with the palms facing... but traditionally in boxing and Muay Thai it's thrown palms down. His explanation of the weight on the legs is nice as well. Very concise. This highlights one of the big and often unnoticed differences between mechanics in an amateur style boxing and a pro style boxing. He's dug in and weighted and punches mean something beyond just making a point... whereas most of amateur style boxing is up on the toes, more speed/point focus and less power/damage/KO focused. Gem that vid.
Sagat and Samart Boxing sparring,some nice hooks thrown here guys [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNU_8_3pr-k"]Samart Sakad training - YouTube[/ame]
Two legends there! Nice. Here's a longer clip to show how savvy Samart was with his boxing - including the power of his hooks. Also a bit of boxing footage thrown in there for good measure as well. Sagat footage sadly is much harder to come by on the net. edit... oops forgot the vid - lol here it is: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLD7hEzZEs"]Samart Payakaroon Muay Thai Highlight สามารถ พยัคฆ์à¸à¸£à¸¸à¸“ - YouTube[/ame]
Great clip thanks Slip,I sometimes forget just how good Samart was,I grew up on him and Sityodtong in the early 1980s and our style at the time was based on Sityodtong and Samart,teep,high and low kicks,long knee and good hand skills with a strong defence excellent
Tense your arm in hook position with your fist horizontal, then do the same vertical. You will notice the bicep is added much more to the vertical punch.
In fact if you set your arm as if it was in mid-hook and then just rotate the hand back and forth a few times you can easily feel how the orientation of the hand changes the engagement of the bicep. However, I'm not sure that adds all that much to the punch in terms of power or speed to be honest. The way I tend to view it the power in a hook punch comes from its semi-circular nature - driven by the hip torque and the movement of the shoulders... the elbow joint itself almost set in position from the start of the punch to the point of contact. Thought I think for most people the punch tends to shift in between the two depending on what's going on during the set up to the hook. There are those who throw the punch distinctly one way or the other all of the time... but my suspicion is that most people make micro adjustments all along the way. FWIW - one hellified puncher that used the vertical hook a lot in his fights was good 'ol Iron Mike.
No it won't add speed or power because as you rightly said, speed and power cone from the hip and shoulder working together to 'drive' or 'swing' the arm into the target But with the fist horizontal the whole arm becomes more resistant on impact. Because the whole bicep is being usd rather than the side/tricep. Presenting a more solid limb. To hit with.(imagine someone pushing against your hook, you would be stronger with the fist horizontal )
