Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by Pretty In Pink, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    So I'm having a lot of trouble shooting on people in Wrestling practice, and in MMA. I'm a bit taller so I need to lower my stance more, but I also find it really hard to commit and drive a takedown. Anybody got advice and/or set-ups for the shoot/after the shoot?
  2. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    If you're taller, maybe think about ankle picks and trips rather than leg dives.

    Ankle pick variations:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpBTFoHLsEM"]Ankle Pick Takedown - YouTube[/ame]

    One of my taller training partners liked to go for an outside trip during double-leg attemps. Looked kinda like this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IghbzR3WnT8"]Wrestling Moves: Double Leg Takedown Trip - YouTube[/ame]

    As a slower guy, one thing that's helped me is circling from the outside, just out of range, then using this circling motion to walk my opponent into a square position for the double-leg, and disguise a back-step. I'm having trouble finding a video of it, but let's assume you're in a right staggered stance. You've been circling left and right to get your opponent used to seeing your legs move like that. Once he's squared up with you, step your left leg toward your right, as if you were going to circle that way, but bring your foot a little towards the front. The side-to-side motion is easier to detect than the front-to-back motion, but you've position your rear leg more under your center. The second that foot lands, drive off of it to get your penetration step with your right foot. This provides an extra drive into your opponent.

    A stupid-simple set-up is to get a two-on-one on one of his wrists and pull it towards his lead leg. If he doesn't resist, you can hook up a single leg simply by letting go of the wrist and driving into him to envelop the knee; if he pulls back, he's probably weighted on his back foot and given you his lead leg, though you should be prepared for him to switch stance by pulling his lead leg back, but his means his rear leg (or what beggins as his rear leg) will still be immobilized, and you can target that if you are aware that he might switch. An instinctive way for guys to block this is to post against your head, in which case you can swing his trapped arm upwards into the arm he's posting with to clear it off and create an opening for the shot.

    For MMA, I've modified my "shot" a bit so that it's poor wrestling form, but seems to work. After all, I see guys like Koscheck, Couture, and GSP hitting it this way. Set up your TD's with punches (and work this against the bag or in drills against a partner in practice), shooting off of every punch to get a feel for it. Use combinations, and in fact mix up body and head punches- the level changing used for body punching and takedowns is practically the same, and the opponent won't know whether to expect a punch or a takedown. Mix up singles and doubles, again getting a feel for how they flow off of the punches, and have your partner give you about 20% resistance at first. BUT, after you throw your combination, you should be close enough to simply hit the opponent's hips with your shoulder. THAT is your takedown, or at least the "kuzushi" (off-balancing) for the leg dive. By focusing on a shoulder bump, you also kill your own urge to reach for the legs- bump first, then grab. And one of the fastest ways to do this is to "break form" and bend at the waist. It works for MMA because the stances are more upright, and you've used punches to both freeze him in place and occupy his hands.

    Here are some good set-ups from the clinch:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kWy6FaZKA&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB95625798E28C306"]Smith Setups - YouTube[/ame]

    Edit- holy crap, great series here:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA79McVr3AI"]Sergey Beloglasov : Leg Attacks,Setups & Finishes 1/3 - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0kLYPLxBNs&feature=relmfu"]Sergey Beloglasov : Leg Attacks,Setups & Finishes 2/3 - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7hdC9rPeRQ&feature=relmfu"]Sergey Beloglasov : Leg Attacks,Setups & Finishes 3/3 - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i like the cael sanderson ankle pick.
    it gets you much closer to the leg and is hard to counter.
    theres less distance to travel.

    most people who have trouble double leg tend to drive forward through the shoot instead of circling.
  4. Knoxy

    Knoxy Undisputed and Undefeated

    Have you made sure you distancing is correct? I'd want to be able to touch them in wrestling or be able to punch your opponent in MMA.
  5. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    This is an excellent point, and often over-looked. In a grappling context (and to a lesser degree, MMA) you set up your takedown from the tie-up. Control the tie-up, control the takedown.

    As an adendem to this, make sure your penetration step is deep, getting under their center of gravity- a common visual devise is to imagine the opponent has a pane of glass between his toes, and drive through with enough force to break the class.
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, I do this, still struggle though.
  7. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep practise over and over, there’s a reason you don’t see many double elg attacks in UK submission wrestling and UK MMA compared to the states, we don’t spend 3 hours a day 5 days a week working on the mechanics like they do in school. Grab a partner and a crash mate and working on timing and commitment , use different set ups but always make sure your distance is well inside touching range, people say shoot from jab range or if your hand can touch his forehead, this is still normally too far away especially for tall guys, shoot fromm hook range or collar tie range, you need to be that close.
    Don’t concentrate on hitting your partners legs, look past them about 6 feet to where you want to take them, this should help you shoot correctly, you don’t shoot to them, you shoot to the mat way behind them and take them with you

    For very tall guys the ankle pick and knee tap work well, either of an underhook or single neck tie

    Since you have long levers use them, a good set up for the double leg is a single collar neck tie and hand control on the other side:
    snap down on the collar tie as you step your back leg back and you level change (don’t step forward into a penetration step you will be handing them a single the distance is too close) if they resist and pull up on the neck tie let them: your level will be below there’s and you are in range to shoot a blast double if they don’t resist the snap down you can either go straight to the front head lock series or snap down and to the side and set up an single leg or a high crotch

    For MMA you don’t need to shoot so low, simply level change of a lead hand punch, such as a loose hook punch (don’t rotate your hips to much) level change and ensure you penetrate deeply (god that sounds bad) so your shoulder hits them before you reach around their legs, taller guys can also shoot ala fedor: one hand on the opponents far hip (using your lead hand) hip one hand behind the front leg drive in and flair, works well for running them into the fence
  8. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Not much to add here. Callsign has more or less covered it (in my opinion).

    I'm 5'11, gangly arms and legs, stocky body. So my limbs are easy targets, but I can get some leverage.
    As someone mentioned before, look at your distancing. I mentioned it in past threads, I tend to shoot from a collar/elbow tie rather than a striking distance.
    Its because the opponent has less time to react, and you got less movement to do. All you got to do is literally drop to a knee if in clinching range. Bear hug the knees together and drive forward.
    I used to tend to hold on as well so when we all fall I have an idea of where I am...(at times can get distracted).

    So many times I just stopped at the shoot, because basically...I didnt know where I was (in the scheme of opponents body position to mine).
  9. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    There's some great Gene Mills vids out there too to add to some of Callsignfuzzy's recommendations.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idxnkqRprm0&feature=mr_meh&list=PL87BA13EF3DDF0A23&playnext=0"]Gene Mills 2 on 1 Foot Sweep - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgB5UxKaKtw&feature=bf_next&list=PL87BA13EF3DDF0A23"]Gene Mills 2 on 1 Ankle Pick - YouTube[/ame]
  10. minamo9

    minamo9 ファイター

    Heya Chadz. When shooting i usually fake a punch or two before going for one leg. (the front one) from there i raise that leg while kicking away the other. I try to land on mount, but if that fails, i go to side control.
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I've always seen shooting in wrestling as general movement in striking. For instance a boxer is constantly moving back and forth, side to side . . . etc. and it's just a common thing. That's how I see shooting, like a boxers footwork and movement around the ring. Sure, it's common and not a lot can be set up or done without it . . . . but it's also one of those things that needs to be done thousands upon thousands of times as well as worked on with sparring. You get good at what you do all the time, and you begin to get comfortable with it as well. Shooting in wrestling is most definitely one of those things.
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    A simple thing that a lot of people don't do is drive through your opponent. I would say like a rugby tackle, sit him on his butt.
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I was taught that it's safer to circle and drive rather than drive straight through
  14. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    What I was talking about driving through your opponent I meant as the last step. Once you have your set up and have begun your double leg finish with power. A lot of people do the set up and initial drive just fine but fail to commit to the finish with power.

    You see it in Americian football as well. It's called arm tackling. If you don't commit to the finish with power a determined wrestler has chance to avoid the take down much like a determined runner can avoid the tackle.
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    yep hence you need a crash mat and you need to imagine finishing a good 6 feet through your opponent, you dont shoot to him, you shoot to the mat behind him he just simply comes for the ride
  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Which leads nicely into the point I'm about to make. With my guys who struggle with doubles if it's not the lead leg it's that they don't get their hips under them before they drive.
  17. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Yeah, a lot of people think that changing levels means lowering the head.
  18. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    the double leg is not an easy skill, american fighters who wrestled all through high school and uni make it look easy, but honestly MMA wise in the UK id go with the single leg or the upper body clinch game
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    With those who have grappled with me have noticed, I tend to go for a double from the clinch, transition into a single and circle and drive at the same time.
    I try not to "lift" as it were, as for me it tends to stop the drive inwards and it stalls. There are times when a lift is called for but quite rarely. In MMA with a cage/ring/barriers then a lift is necessary when up against it (Tito Ortiz used this with great effect in the early days)...however in the wrestling ring where there is essentially no barriers you just spear through. Like Icefield says....drive right through. Its like your striking, youre not punching/kicking the pad, you're striking behind/past it.
  20. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I have never been instructed once by anyone in an MMA or Wrestling gym to lift during any sort of shooting for a double leg takedown. "Change levels, drive your knee deep into them to throw them off balance and go through them. The rest gets taken care of naturally." I'll be the first to admit that my wrestling skills aren't insane or anything, and actually very novice. But I have pulled double leg takedowns in a wrestling and MMA environment and whenever I pulled it off it looked beautiful. The only thing I may do with a "lift" is pushing my head to one side of the opponent when shooting through and push them in that direction as I'm shooting through. I guess there is a little bit of lifting involved and that has allowed me to land an opponent with me in side mount, but it's not a whole lot of lifting.

    Definitely a striking beyond somebody aspect to it. I was only able to land a double leg takedown after a few weeks of nothing but drilling dropping a level and shooting in, as well as working on hip flexibility. Funny that my current boxing skill, the jab, has only become effective after a couple of weeks of taking ample amount of time (500 jabs after training or 5 rounds heavy bag work dedicated to just jabbing with movement) to train it specifically. I think I'm on to something with learning a fighting skill here . . . repetitions, repetitions, repetitions.

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