Wingchun Lawyer - your attitude astounds me (that's not a good thing). It's obvious you have been taught wing chun under a poor teacher or one who couldn't show you how wing chun can be applied at tournament level. I'm proud to say that our Sifu Kevin Chan trains K1 fighters and spars with them. He has no problem landing punches (with shoulder behind them). There are many wing chun Sifus out there who are extremely good at what they do. Some do apply it at ring level (I believe Wai Po Tan does kickboxing in his classes, and I have seen Grados use grappling and sparring). I do not understand your mentality that 'you will only ever respect a wing chun fighter if he has been in Pride, etc'. I knocked one of my training partners out last night (by accident) using one of our 'weak punches'. He is a black tag in Tae Kwon Do!!!
LEARN TO READ. I heard of Kevin Chan, I know he competes and trains competitors. My whole point was, MORE TEACHERS SHOULD BE LIKE HIM. And I never said I will only respect a WC fighter if he has been in Pride. What I meant was that WC people who do not compete at all (even in a local level) are at a disadvantage when compared to people who do compete (people of any martial arts, mind), while WC people who do not spar might as well play with legos to develop fighting skills. I believe my points (and Eternal Rage´s) are those. 1) Hard contact is essential to develop fighting skills. 2) Frequent, hard sparring is therefore essential. 3) Competition works as an evaluator of one´s skills and as contact practice. 4) Certain techniques are indeed too dangerous to use during sparring or competition. The problem is, those are also the low percentage moves which you are unlikely to use successfully against a skilled, fully resisting opponent who is fighting back. So you should train them, but you should not rely on them exclusively. 5) As a consequence of 4, the practice and study of dangerous techniques is no excuse to avoid hard sparring or competition. 6) In particular, WC does not have as its base "too deadly to spar with" techniques. In all the classes I went to, the most practiced techniques were knee strikes, punches and low kicks. If you do not believe me, trust the aforementioned Kevin Chan. 7) It cannot be said that competition WC is watered down and therefore less effective in a ring, because ALL systems have dangerous techniques. Therefore ALL fighters in a ring are limited in the exact same way. So a WC fighter using "watered down" WC is fighting a MT fighter using "watered down" MT as well. Therefore, there are no excuses.
Very well put. I think the point that wing chun guys are trying to make is that most of the moves involved would be termed illegal. They might not necessarily be lethal moves, but may go against the rules of the comp. For example, all of the kicks in wing chun would be out of the window. Elbows, finger strikes, eye gouges, knife hands would be out!! It would leave wing chun looking very skinny... I agree that many martial arts out there would also be limited, but I think with wing chun the main bulk of it relies on 'illegal moves'. Therefore, you have to adapt your style. The hitting power of wing chun can be used to great effect in the ring. Sticking hands works extremely well in grappling because you can remain relaxed while your opponent tires themselves out, etc
Hm, I would not say WC relies so much on illegal moves. I would agree with the kicks though, WC kicks are indeed nasty. But the rest? I do not believe WC relies so much on eye gouges. But the point, as you put it, is that it CAN be adapted. And even if the WC used in competition therefore becomes "skinny", as you said, the benefits the competitor will get from his experience will improve his game vastly. In fact, I believe a competitor who does not use dangerous techniques in competition will become BETTER at using such moves in real life situations. Because he will acquire a highly developed delivery system, which will enable him to use such moves better than someone who does not regularly fight against skilled opponents!
you say you had 2yrs exp before getting said ass handed to you with his 6 months mt, well how do you know whether a lifetime training any art and he might still have handed it to you. what if you went with 2.3 years or 3.4 or whatever the point im making is this if i take mike tyson, teach him say bong sau do i then have the best system in the world? what about if i taught him sport tkd, would you spar with him? ANY system is only as good as the person doing it as said you punch and kick in wc so i dunno unless you learn a secret punch or grow another leg in mt whats so great? when my ribs were busted during gor sau or a class mate got KO'd it felt fairly real i would say, when a TKD guy came to class and i sparred with him and spent more time picking him up i kind of thought maybe it MIGHT just help me, but then again thats just me
I agree. What dose competitions have to do with this Yes. Define sparring. My sparring is not your sparring. Yes, if your skill is competition training. Most of our "deadly stuff" is indeed very simple. Secondly i dont train for fight a "skilled opponent", hence the lack of need to spar against other styles. It's a very good excuse if it forces you to limit yourself. Yes, those techniques are very practical, along with simple deadly stuff!!1! The diffrence being these "deadly" techniques are in the very core of Wing Chun. Remove them and you remove a chunk of the system. A MT fighter trains in the ring and therefore can utilise all of that training. Imagine putting a BJJer in a stand up fight with takedowns and ground fighting illegal.
Well put I can see some benefits and experiance gained, but it shouldn't overide your core training. One of the reason why i'd recommend cross-training (say grappling or FMA) so you can train stuff more suited to the test of competiton pressure. I'm not overly against competitons, but i feel you need to put your training in context and in my eyes Wing Chun isn't for tournaments. I'm intrested in Sanshou and would do competitions in that.
Homer, I will not answer your other points because, quite frankly, I already did. But I will define sparring, as well as I can do it. Sparring, as I understand it, can be translated as "combat training" - it is a drill where both participants are trying to do the same thing to each other, in a context where both are trying to perfect and apply the skills they would use in a real confrontation. Now, this is a broad definition. We can narrow it down by adding "hard" to it, in which case both are trying to do the same thing to each other by putting every ounce of strength they have on it, while at the same time preventing the other from doing the same. So judo randori is sparring, same as BJJ rolling around, same as Muay Thai fights, same as Kyokushin fights, same as boxing fights. In all cases you got two people trying to throw each other, submit each other, or beat each other to a pulp, within a minimum framework of rules to keep things as safe as possible.
Thats where i disagree because in a street confrontation your wont always be aiming to do the same things. In a confrontation you probably don’t want to fight, they probably do. If you do however you’ll be aiming to defend yourself. Now you might hurt them as a result of defending yourself, but the fact is there are two totally different mind frames there. I can see the use of the sprawling type stuff, but I still think it’s important to vary it. You should define sparring in the context of the style and your aims. The definition is right for the systems you mentioned, which incidentally were mainly sport based. I defind that i believe they are in Wing Chun in post #40.
Sparring is sparring. The rules vary with its goals, but not the drill itself: its purpose does not change as well (i.e. preparing someone to use his skills against a fully resisting opponent). Yes, in a real situation obviously you are not trying to do the same thing as the attacker. But, and this is a very important point - THIS DOES NOT INVALIDATE SPARRING OR MAKES IT LESS NECESSARY. The skills you acquire through sparring are essential - damage absorption, power, precision, timing, footwork, everything is essential. So this does not vary with the style. Sparring is used to teach some skills you have to learn by yourself, which you have to earn. Only now I have really understood it, in fact, after two years of Muay Thai. The skills you develop in sparring will let you attack, defend, evade, and (gasp) even allow you to fight back using an improvised weapon, if need be. Because, if nothing else, YOU WON´T PANIC. You need this edge to use everything else. About this... Then you can pad up and go for more brawling, punch after punch type stuff etc. "Of course there are rules - you dont want to kill someone but there not the same as competitions. We can train all our techniques, the only rules are the obvious ones, i.e. not stamping someone’s leg in half or smashing there throat in etc, of course, accident can happen." It does seem like you spar. As long as you do it hard and often, your WC training cannot be as bad as mine was. But you do need to get some nosebleeds and bruises...
I agree to some degree, but the dill can change depending on how you are training. We train with someone against a wall, multiple attackers, from a headlock etc. Your aims might be the same, but you cannot apply the same drills/strategies for each of these hence the need to vary training.
Of course, some kinds of sparring are more suitable to certain goals than others, I agree with that. Still, ideally you should do all kinds necessary to develop all the skills you train in class. The problem then would be acquiring the necessary protective equipment, area of training, etc.
People discredit the "too deadly" argument too fast... In a way, I think people discredit the "too deadly to spar" argument a bit too quick. Not that I mean any art is too deadly by itself, but many arts aim to have the shortest fight possible by striking vital points. For instance, I train in White Crane Kung Fu (which is similar to Wing Chun in many regards). Our school has a heavy focus on self-defense rather than NHB/MMA/point sparring. The concept we rely on the most; the one we practice the most, is that we should deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit. So we practice speed and precision. I often spar, but with light contact, as it's not necessary to train being hit 4 times in a row on the head. Only while speed and precision are great when you strike for vital points, it's much less important in a ring than endurance, stamina and strength. All the time we train in speed and precision, a MMA fighter will train the other three. So in the street, I might be able to drop a MMA fighter very quickly in one strike to a vital point. It makes me the better fighter. In the ring, though, I can't, so my strikes will be comparatively weaker (since I've trained less strength), he'll outlast me with his stamina and KO me when I tire because I haven't trained for being repetitively hit over a 5 minutes period. So a MA is not less practical or effective if it's not as competitive in the ring than arts created almost exclusively to compete.
1) No they don´t. Your post didn´t change anything. 2) All arts do. Didn´t you know? 3) "Deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit"...funny, that´s what I train as well. But since I spar hard, I know a decisive hit is hard to get. So I train to fight. 4) If you don´t spar heavy contact you might as well not spar. And yes, it is necessary to be hit in the head and to hit other people in the head to learn how to take hits and how to deliver hits in the head effectively. Not that your light sparring sifu has ever told you that, of course. 5) Your english fu, apparently, is also done only with light contact sparring. 6) Because "MMA fighters" (whatever that means) obviously do not train precision. You White Crane dudes have the monopoly on that. 7) Oh Lord, how delusional. See, THIS is the sort of sad behaviour commonly exhibited by wing chuners.
Oh my! I didn't expect such an aggressive answer! 1) Most of the time, people don't even discuss it except against strawmen. 2) Not all do to the same degree. Some prefer to tire their opponent before going for the KO/kill. Some prefer to go slow but steady; grappling arts often do, because they prefer to establish their mastery on the situation before going in a lock (and you can't blame them, for it can backfire quite easily). 3) Did I say they were easy to get; that's exactly why I train in speed and precision more than brute strength and endurance. 4) Time spent getting hit in the head in heavy contact sparring is time not spent training speed and precision. Different approaches to fighting; I didn't say your focus was useless, don't assume mine is. 5) English is not my primary language. Perhaps you want to continue this conversation in French so I can discredit your arguments on that basis? 6) It's all about relative training. AT EQUAL SKILLS AND TRAINING TIME, a NHB fighter (or someone that trains in order to fight in competitions) will train more endurance and less precision. Of course they'll train precision too, but a Wing Chun, White Crane or other Self-defence TMA artist will be better in precision because he'll have trained more of it. 7) What part of it is delusional, the better fighter part or the dropping a MMA fighter (by MMA fighter, I mean a fighter that has trained in order to fight in Mixed Martial Arts competitions) part? I'll address both. Of course; those vital points are hard to hit; but while you are getting hit 10 times in the head repetitively, I'm training to stike your nuts, throat, ribs, temples and thighs. No matter how many times you train to resist full power roundhouses to the head, if I manage to land a single spear-hand trust to your throat, it's over. And guess what, that's what we train at! Maybe the competition Martial Artist would manage to evade such hits, to strike back. In that case, it's simply skill, not the martial art getting in the way. In the ring, though, the lack of lethal / debilitating strikes is clearly getting in the way of the artist that have trained these more extensively. Of course, they can be transformed into non-lethal strikes, but they won't shorten the fight. For the better fighter part; isn't the better fighter the one able to beat his opponent in a fair fight, no matter how vicious the strikes or if grapples are permitted and so on? So that's what I'm talking about; I'm not saying Wing Chun/White Crane/CMAs and other TMAs would rock everyone if they were permitted to use deadly strikes! I only mean to say that their not being as good for NHB does not mean that they are any less effective for self defense. Edit: And about sparring. My school trains light contact only, but I still train harder with my kyokushin karate friends. Maybe women self-defense classes school are also rubbish for self-defense because they don't all bash each other's skull with their keychains!
Gizzy, all your aguments have been discussed before on this very thread. Suffice to say this: Deadly techniques do not prevent hard sparring, and do not substitute hard sparring. Without hard sparring you can´t fight. Go play videogames, it is better training. Pressure points strikes and such are close to impossible to use against a skilled, fully resisting opponent, even though they may work very well. So they are mostly finishing moves. And guess what? To be able to use a finishing move, you must be able to fight. Back to sparring. All STRIKING arts include training to end a fight ASAP. SO the point is not the art, it is the training method. You suck not because you do White Crane instead of Muay Thai or Kickboxing: you suck because you do not spar hard and regularly, and therefore if you went all out against someone who does you would not be able to attack or defend as well as him. In fact, you would probably panic when you got hit in the nose the first time. Got it? Incidentally, my first language is portuguese. Edite: since you mentioned Kyokushin friends, quit that light sparring rubbish and go do Kyokushin NOW. Stop wasting your time, KK is an excellent striking art. And yes, I would say a women´s self defense course is useless without hard contact sparring against males, excepting, of course, situational awareness and such.
Look at the techniques in WC that make it so bred for self defense. The bil jee, the striking of vital areas, the knee smashing and joint smashing etc etc. Almost every system in martial arts does these things. The "deadly techniques" are not unique to WC by far. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "self defence" oriented. As far as I'm concerned if the martial art system isn't about competition (ie mainstream TKD) or about health (ie Tai Chi for health) then its for self defense. If you can explain how WC is more self defense like than other styles please elaborate. I honestly don't see how it is more self defense oriented other than the fact that they try to brainwash you with that stuff from day one. Neither will a system like most WC, which doesn't incorporate any throws or grappling or any major long distance techniques (if an instructor decides to add it in as crosstraining). It's mainly focused on in fighting, so I don't see your point here because WC is just as narrow focused as most martial arts. Then you aren't training it live and with resistance. The point I'm trying to make is that no one does. Hence this "too deadly" excuse from WC is moot because they don't train their "too deadly" stuff for realz anyway.
Wingchunlawyer, I've rarely read posts written with such a condescending attitude. If you are going to dissagree, do so respectfully. Until then, I won't gratify you with an answer.
How cute, now you are offended. Please note that, with or without the respect you believe you deserve, I have offered solid reasons to support my views on the need to spar hard: come back when you want do discuss martial arts. But if you just want to be cuddled, the door is right over there.
