Will the real Yang Family hand form stand up please!

http://s49.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3KSFYPVQPSK172ROPEEW1K54TU

http://s39.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0IEFXR4U06Z2C23VRHGGGUO4UX

 

The first clip downloaded sound only - so we are faced with the small frame which only a handful of people in the world know or some plinky plonky music with no visuals.....
...so your point is....?
:Angel:

 

They both download in full I have just checked them. The first one is .avi the second is .mpg

Regarding the rest I will leave it to your intelligence and knowledge to work it out.

 

Having watched both clips, I know one is Tian demonstrating some of his small frame, but have no idea who the other man is. I was wondering if there was any connection between the two men.

 

One is Tian's family "Small frame" and the others is the Yang's family "large frame". :love:
Which is the "real Yang Family hand form" I don't know!?
How I said many lineages says that are authentic (or real Yang), but who knows!?
Surely there is "real Yang Family hand form" in both, but which is more "real" I don't know.

 

One is empty the other is full. Do you know what I am refering to?

 

Yang Zhen Duo - 3rd son to Yang Cheng Fu and claimant to being head (4th generation gatekeeper) of the family. AND the Yang family representative of the PRC, which is more to the point.

 

Still doesn't download.
Anyway, I liked Mr Tian, I think his Taiji is cool
Regarding the idea of 'real' and 'true' and all that 'Yang Family' BS you seem to think is so important, I personally could care less.
I decided to think for myself a few years ago, so, I respect the people who want to do all that 'tradition' lineage thing, I listen to them, take what I like, leave what I don't and I'm happy...
I do 21st century neijia, not some historical re-enactment lol
But anyhow, tbh Richard, having read your comments about MAP members on your own forum, and knowing you as well as I ever really want to, I have to say I think that basically you're a silly little man with a big spoon just trying to start another wind-up row for your own gratification. Get a life.
:Angel:

 

It is not Tian family small frame it is Yang Lu Chan's frame (it had no name then) as passed down (unchanged!!) to Tian Zhao Lin by Yang Jian Hou. The names only came about to differentiate the latter generations simplifications and corruption. Yang Jian Hou - middle frame, Yang Cheng Fu - large frame.

Now you Chen-ist do you recognise any Chen in it 'cos I don't, why do you think that is?

 

Listen sweety, I have no intention of becoming another Lio - what ever his face is. Isn't one enough for you. Enjoy.

 

Kault!

 

Yes, one is empty on is full. But one is more stil and the other is more in motion ;-) OK, there are visible differences.

The today Yang family have less with (YCF) TJQ than many others outside it. Also teachings of Yang Jian Hou are mainly almost lost.
Many today TJQ's have little in common with the TJQ of Yang Lu Chan and his sons.

My opinion is also that Yang Cheng Fu did a great job. Yes, maybe he "simplified" something but also he made TJQ more accessible and made possible its conservation. However also his TJQ style is in minority :-(

 

That was certainly interesting looking, but how can you know it is unchanged from the way Yang Luchan practiced it? Because you've met him? Because Tian tells you so? Yang spent 17 years studying at Chen village, so I think it's a fairly safe assumption that a lot of what he did came from there. Of course he was also an experienced martial artist before going to Chen Village and then continued to practice for decades after leaving Chen village, so it wouldn't have been surprising if his form came to reflect his personal experiences and previous training. Just because it doesn't look much like the way Chen is practiced today (which almost certainly looks quite different from how it was practiced in Luchan's time) doesn't have to mean that Yang learned it from a magical Daoist. Also, just because your teacher tells you so doesn't mean that you can ever know for certain exactly what Yang's form looked like since we don't have any video footage of him.

All that aside, the demonstration did look powerful. At what point is he sending mind-blasts to defeat the opponent without touching him? Since you claim to be able to affect others without touching them and also believe that YLC was 1000 times better at it than you are, does this mean that YLC could kill people just by looking at them?

 

Nobody knows exactly how practiced YLC :-(
It is laso true that the teacher of YLC practiced different Chen that is practiced today. Maybe it was between today Yang and today Chen.
Is also said that YLC changed his martial art acording the teaching of a taoist monk that practiced the Taijiquan of Zhang Sanfeng. YLC also never said that he learned from only one teacher, but he always talk about his (main) teacher.

 

Tian Yin Jia - son of Tian Zhao Lin. Was sent to a punishment collective farm in 1967 during cultural revolution. Taught no one up until late 1980's as he was not allowed. Only left that village 4 years ago in order to live with his daughter. Now 75 years old (he was in the clip). That clip is the first time in his life he has ever shown any of it publically. The form is 66 movement, that was a small part of it. He changed nothing his father gave him, he worships the name of his father and of Yang Jian Hou and Yang Shou Hou. He has taught it to no one as he says no one is ready.
Tian Zhao Lin - adopted son of Yang Jian Hou. Adopted at the age of thirteen by YJH as a training partner for his two sons as he considered them both to have problems. YSH too agressive and angry. YCF too lazy. TZL and YSH were the only people to be taught Yang Lu Chan's form by Jian Hou, everyone else of his disciples was taught the middle frame which was his simplification of this work. The jin involved in Lu Chan's form were broken into two forms of training, the Yang family 8 brocade neigong and the middle frame 88 move form. Cheng Fu was not taught it as he ran away from home and did not return until after his fathers death.
Yang Jian Hou - son of Yang Lu Chan. Given gatekeeper status due to his elder brothers mental instability (a reaction to the hard training required in those days). Lu chan taught a few inner students this form, his public teaching was different. It has been modified into the short stepping northern Wu over time from the Manchu official he taught.
Yang Lu Chan learned this from Chen Chang Hsing. This line of training has now died in the Chen Clan. The modern Chen is purely a reaction to Yang family success and prestigue in marketing the concept after Cheng Fu went public with the large frame and since Fa Ke went to Beijing in the 1930's. There is also Chen Clan hard work which is another line of work (there were many branches of work in the Chen Clan) it roots directly to Shaolin and has little in common with this.

A form is a physical expression of Jin, energetic training is the training of the energy *behind* the physical movement in order to create Jin and bring it to the fore. And the training of mind (intent) in order to flavour the Jin, i.e. create the function.

 

Interesting story. It has also it sense.
Without doubt the form of Tian Yin Jia (as you said passed him by Tian Zhao Lin) is very energetic and more deep of the "large frame".
However, nobody exactly knows how the Yang Lu Chan's form was. Maybe, the form of Tian Zhao Lin is the preserved YLC form.

 

Sweetness and Light

Only one point - at the demo I went to, Mr Tian said it has 64 movements, because I asked him if it corresponded with bagua which he seemed to agree it did - are you now saying it's 66 or was that an error?
:Angel:

 

You came to one demonstration and to one seminar because I invited you and yet for the last 6 months you talk here as though you are expert. You are no student of Tian - Yao - or even me, so cut the crap. Your knowledge on his training is miniscule and so far you have been wrong in just about everything you have refered to including this.

 

I never claimed to be anyone's student, that is your agenda, not mine....
I am a student of Tao, all your hierarchy is just... "smoke and mirrors" to me, so....
....rather than talking down to me, Richard, would you mind answering my question: Did Mr Tian make a mistake, or did you? He said 64. Which is it?

 

Still waiting....
Oh well....
I guess that's the problem with 'knowing everything' and 'being right all the time' isn't it, Richard?
Also, the problem with being in a "Master who knows everything and student who basks in his glory" relationship.... it's great until you - "pish pass the pot" is the expression, I believe.
Thankyou for such a succinct illustration of the perils of vanity and ego. Sad...

Or are you going to prove me wrong about you and answer the damn question???? lol
:Angel: