Who do you train with?

That sounds a bit cynical. So judo is a sport that is only about winning in competition and isn't a martial art anymore? If so then you're right.

Don't disagree with your take on Hayes, in fact I have mentioned similar sentiments in the past.

 

No, there are plenty of dojos than don't just teach to the IJF rule set. And plenty of places where you have to demonstrate the kodokan goshon jutsu before being awarded a shodan. Plenty of places that don't either, but traditional judo can be found outside of Japan.

The focus in competition has eliminated the ability of people to lie to themselves, and others, about their skill sets. Okay people still lie but it's easy to get called out on.

 

So you think the modern focus on competition has improved judo? People lie, that's why there's referees. Focusing on competition doesn't mean that people don't lie to themselves, they just tell themselves different ones. Turning judo into a sport didn't reduce hero worship, it may have increased it.

 

Actually that's a whole can of worms to open. Judo was always competition focused, but rules change over time. There's a few things I'm not happy about with the current rule set, like elimination of leg attacks, but that's a conversation for another part of the forum.

I feel like freestyle judo is closer to what judo should be. Or even BJJ competitions.

So are there problems with the modern rule set? Absolutely. Would I still put a competitive judoka up against a classical jujutsu/ninjutsu practitioner? Absolutely. Empty handed of course.

That's not to say that I don't value what I'm learning from the Takamatsuden. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. But I often feel like I learn as much from a kata when I try to use it in randori, and often fail, as I do when I go through the motions as perfectly as possible in a tori/uke scenario. That's why I asked about Matsu Kaze in another thread. It's something I use a lot in randori. Or I used to use a lot, now my sparring partners are looking for it so I've moved on to other things. I saw a video of someone highly regarded saying, something to the effect of 'don't use a morete seoi nage here, it will never work because your opponent will never force himself into your matsu kaze to regain his posture.' And my internal response is, no but either he'll push your hand away or pull his hips back, either of which beautifully sets up the throw. I've done it that way.

I'm not saying everyone in the Takamatsuden trains without unscripted resistance. I don't go to Japan, I don't pretend to know how the training is there, but pretty much everyone I've seen or met in the states doesn't. And I think this is a problem. Even if you can execute every kata in the art perfectly, everything changes once someone starts trying to do to you what you are trying to do to them.

And the thing is, just looking at some of the kata, the idea that your opponent resists is built in. Yume Makura, from Kukishinden Ryu comes to mind. It's an example of tori not being able to correctly execute a technique and so, be necessity, moving to the next one, then the next until finishing with te makura. A kata like that evolves because at some point someone was working through resistance. I feel that ignoring that kind of training ignores the foundation the kata are built on.

I had edited out the hero worship line because that's another whole can of worms. I was referring to teachers and maybe it's best summed up by something one of my college professors, who himself was an undergrad at Harvard, once said:

"When I first got to Harvard I thought my teachers were gods, and they knew everything. Then when I started seeing their limitations I thought they were idiots, who didn't know anything. Then I realized, no, they were human beings, just like me, who may have limitations but still have plenty to teach me."

I could say exactly the same about my Judo coach. When I was a kid and he was still competing, he was untouchable. Then I got older and he slowed down a bit and suddenly when I could throw him I thought he was never really that good. Then I got a little older and realized, maybe, because I'm younger and stronger I am a better athlete at this point in time than he is, but his understanding of Judo is still excellent and I still have things to learn from him.

So, my long winded point is that sometimes in arts where there is no unscripted resistance, people look at their teachers like they are gods, and never stop to question the validity of the teaching. And sometimes you need to question things to better understand them.

 

Fair enough.

How many of the later of you know? I wouldn't put the average group 3 global ninjutsu practitioner up myself.

Was the highly regarded person ever featured in the Bad Ninjutsu Videos thread?

So group 3. If you can execute all of the kata perfectly, then it doesn't matter is someone changes the attack, speed, or other factors. This assumption(stuff not going to plan) is already anticipated and actively trained from day 1 if you learn the correct way, under the right teacher.

Who in this thread has been arguing for ignoring it?:dunno: You can only assume about things in life you've never been exposed to, or wait with an open mind until you have been exposed to them.

Never met an old guy you couldn't throw? There are many teachers who don't live up to your ideal, but on a rare occasion you meet someone who does.

I think looking at your teacher as a role model, idol, hero, or just someone you want to emulate is natural if they have qualities that you want to aspire to. It is part of human nature. Are there plenty of sheeple out there who just do as they are told and never question their arts? Of course, but those kind of people have nothing to do with this conversation(we aren't discussing newbies, wannabes, or fanboys). You can't stay in these arts for decades without questioning things(as you put it), you certainly wouldn't move to Japan without questioning things, and you wouldn't get flak from all sides if you didn't question things. Sometimes people are that good, and you really can't touch them. That's an eye opening experience that you may have if you spend enough time around men in certain professions. There's something in their eyes or demeanour or body language that gives them away for the real bad **** that many want to think they are. These are the kind of people that you would have to incapacitate on your first shot, because you would never get a second, and even your first would have to be a miracle to have any effect.

There are people like that in the Takamatsuden, but you have to know where and how to look for them.

 

Sorry, I'm not going to quote but I'll try to answer your questions:

I don't know if said highly regarded person is in the bad video thread. It's long, I haven't been through it, and don't really want to spend the time.

No one in this thread has argued against unscripted resistance but plenty of people in the community do. I'm sure there's a few threads somewhere on this site and ebudo as well.

There are plenty of old men who can throw, but they're not competitive with skilled younger men. Physics and biology being what they are, it's just the way of the world. Doesn't mean the old men don't have plenty to teach and a better understanding of the art they practice.

I remember when I was first able to throw my coach I was almost apologetic about it. He just laughed and told me it was his job to make us better than he ever was, an art grows because good teachers are able to make each generation better than the last.

Sometimes things like bad rule sets interfere with that, but on the whole that's how things improve from generation to generation.

 

What's their name? Are they Japanese. If not, ignore.

There are always dummies out there. That's why they're in group 3.

Sure, but there are old dudes out there who you don't want to tangle with. Maybe not in a ring, but on the street you would be mincemeat.

Sure, Hatsumi sensei mentioned his first time Takamatsu sensei had to go to one knee to throw him. It hurts when you find out someone isn't invincible, but sometimes you never do.

Yes.