Where do buy a decent sword .

Hi Kogusoku,
I respect your view and you have expressed it in a reasonable manner.
If you request I will cease this discussion

The Bear.

 

Agreed.

I think we have run our course and beat each other up enough over something we will not agree about...

Mods, don't bother locking this thread - I'm done on this debate - but it may serve useful to others to add to...

 

Don't outright blatantly LIE to me. Before I addressed you in any way you insinuated 'fake' to 5 years of training with this school and then you went on to mention something about 'youtube warriors'. This may be your stock reply but it is still derogatory and baseless as far as I'm concerned.

Well my opinion remains that history records re martial arts has no bearing on my training. Badmouth it all you want but I'm not interested in that crutch to justify training I was happy with. I will take classes and stick/not stick with them based on the training not the backround, history and exploits of the teachers teachers teacher.. That's just ridiculous. The only relevent reasearch is to go to the classes and try it out. Everything else is a poor second in my view.

You are welcome to other views but i just don't care for it. Martial training is not some historical or academic persuit for me and never ever will be. It was interesting for a while when I started TMA's now i realise for me it is sidetrack and irrelevent to here and now training. 'tradition' has nothing to do with my training anymore neither does culture, lineage or 'correct teminology in x language and all that nonsense.

I don't claim to know much about the lineage, history and academic topics of JSA and don't want to learn anymore or anything much that I have no personal interest beyond the training .. Sure i was generalizing and it may sound rude. i apologise if you are personally offended by it. But in my defense i was responding to the blatant snobish and 'witch hunting' attitude that was displayed toward my input on the thread. The road spooky and scottuk went down was uncalled for given the topic and circumstances. And just highlights how silly that attitude is and it is being bad mannered towards someone elses investment in training and learning something they are happy with (any history included).

I responded in kind to spooky and scott, you just jumped on the bandwagon with your standard reply to what you see as 'fake' training.

Me saying the persuit of the history over the training is being nerdy or geeky is not bad mannered. I stand by that. It is irrelevent nonsense in light of the here and now of what gets done in the training hall. That is all there is to any practice at any time. Past, present and future. That's my opinion so badmouth and adress that all you want. that's NOT what you did in your initial post. All you basically said about that opinion was it was over generalizing, which is fine. I'll accept that happily.. I couldn't help my self on that and the rudeness under the circumstances. I just don't go in for it and never will.

Nope when the witch hunt gets going the pleasentries go out the window as far as I'm concerned. I have nothing personal with them or you or care about the self importance of x training and history over others. If it is good for them I am happy for anyone. If someone elses training is not my cup of tea, you will never catch me acting in that way.. I would not lower myself whatever the perceived justifaction.

If it comes off as rude so be it. It is typical and expected i might add so maybe I am guilty of being over defensive to that attitude in TMA, because i've heard it all before. But I could see it coming from them two all day long.

So yes I feel justified in being rude about history/lineage issue in my reply to spooky under the circumstances. I have underlined the important point from my pov. No need for everyone who has an interest in MA history to feel insulted. But if anyone who purports to be in it for the practice & values history personal or otherwise over the training I have a low opinion of all that kind of 'carry on'..

If anyone wants to play Columbo they can do it on their time. The contact details are freely available, i've discussed all i know regards the history previously and won't do so any further on any thread. If any one has any further issue about this stuff or wants to bring their inquisition style questions to me re my time there (which I value) they can use pm. End of.

I doubt Spooky was genuinely interested in honest answers to his snobby questioning regard any training I've had. Many are clearly (and sadly) too much into the popcorn and beer witch hunt mentality on forums. If i here from any of you 3 amigos via pm re honest facts re. zks classes/training it will be a pleasant and welcome surprise.

Yeah as if..

 

Bear, even though our discussion has concluded, I have to post for this fellow...

FAO Cloudhandz:

Dude you need to chill out. People have a right to free speech and if Kogusoku wants to call you on something, then that's his choice. I personally didn't see anything wrong with his comments, but maybe I'm a budo nazi as well.

JSA are all about authenticity, lineage and history. Without this you're just swinging a sword around, pretending to be Zatoichi.

Why PM? Why not tell us on here what you studied at ZKS? Do you have something to hide?

 

Oh my, would you like to apply some critical theory to that statement.
Authenticity, a western man dressed in archaic japanese clothing ,following rituals that are alien to his culture and talks of authenticity. Ha, calling all existentialists out there!

The Bear.

 

What do you know of koryu, my good man? Is it not acceptable for a non-Japanese to become involved in the study of koryu?

 

It is only a problem when he speaks of authenticity.

The Bear.

 

How is it not authentic?

 

Did you actually read the content of my first reply in this thread thoroughly?

In reply to your off-the-cuff remark regarding lineage and history being reserved for "nerds" & "geeks", I responded with;

That means you should really do your homework before falling foul of someone who doesn't really know what they are teaching or have even made it up, copying it from other videos and media. Just to clarify. Knowing your lineage, history and facts ensures that you know what you are getting yourself into and aren't being led up the garden path by some "Walter Mitty" type individual.

You seem to think that because we know our histories, lineages and facts that we don't train. How very silly of you.

I spend two months out of the year in Japan, training in the systems I have chosen to study. The rest of the time is spent training and teaching over here, in the UK, three to four times a week. Others on this thread do similar.

Also, the original poster was asking for guidance on a sword to be used for a traditional Japanese budo. Since yours in a strict sense isn't (To have quality control, one has to be snobbish), and claims to be over a 1000 years old (The oldest koryu in Japan recorded at the moment is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu which goes back to the Muromachi period - Over 600 years old.) it does raise eyebrows and lots of questions.

"Returning fire" in a debate is OK I guess, just as long as you don't hose the entire thread. That's when moderators get on the bandwagon.

 

Because Budo today is not Budo of the samurai era.
You are not bound by the same societal conditions and constraints of the period these arts were developed. You do not have the same cultural references nor social mores of a samurai, thankfully.
You condescended to me about budo, perhaps you should learn more of critical theory and western philosophical thoughts on authenticity as product as opposed to idea.

The Bear.

 

Nope, the philosophy of budo and bujutsu are still relevant today.

Please answer the question I posed you on koryu.

 

Relevent yes but are they the same philosophy as say 300 years ago?
Edit: More importantly can you interpret them the same as a samurai of this period?

What Koryu question?

The Bear.

 

Please show how I acted in a manner which could be construed as uncalled for?

If memory serves I’ve asked about your experience in Japanese sword arts. I clearly stated that my reasons for this was so that people who were using this thread for advice and reference could form a balance opinion of what was being said.

If we do not know if your knowledge or experience is relevant to the subject being discussed then how would we know if you have a clue about what you are talking about?

Again it comes back to the question of if a n00b should listen to you over someone like Scott?

So I’ll ask again please show me where I have acted in an uncalled manner. I’ve asked questions about your training and experience in iai etc it has been you who has tried to dodge those questions and generally not been very forthcoming in answering them.

Please show me where I’ve said your training was fake?

Is it fake? Can you show it has a connection to a Japanese Art? If not why not?

I don’t see a witch hunt here.

What I do see is someone offering advice about training equipment for an Japanese Sword art that goes against the general consensus of experienced practioners of the arts.

My initial question about your training:

Your response:

My reply:

Your response:

So even after a number of polite request for you to give us some info about your training you still try to avoid answering.

I believe my reasons for asking are covered in the above quotes.

Please show where in my questions I have given cause for people to doubt my sincerity?

It's funny all I've done is ask for some information about what your training experience is in this area and stated my opinion that some products out there are not suitable for the purposes of Iai etc yet by doing this I've been branded on two occasions now as a snob???

Could you please tell my why by saying these things it marks me as a snob?

Considering that the author of this thread is a friend of mine then you should see that I would like to see him get correct and valid information from people who are experienced in the area he is asking about.

 

No maybe about it.

Seriously if that is ALL they are about why bother to train a 'martial' art..

Nope. Just training with a sword being me.. Seriously if you want to personally bash me and what and how i practice in MA I'll respect you a lot more if you have the balls to do it to my face.

I repeat:
Yeah as if...

Nope nothing to hide, plenty was discussed on thread you brought up from the dead. zks teaches JSA, aikijujutsu, taichi and kickboxing.

In JSA I trained two man applications and drills, kata and solo cutting drills. What else specifically do you want to know about my experience there regard that ?

It is off topic as far as this thread goes so I suggested pm but whatever.. If it is to do with the history then I am not the person to speak to. This was said before on the thread you brought up. i also discussed everything I was aware of in that thread about the history and it was on the website at the time. So regard that there really is nothing I personally have left to tell you about it.

 

Kuma,

Gendai (modern) budo is very solidly based on koryu (old school) budo, with a few western influences here and there. To understand the new, you sometimes have to understand and appreciate the old.

You stated earlier on in the thread that modern budo held certain pacifist ideals. Some do, but to think that all do, is a misconception. Ueshiba Morihei studied koryu and extrapolated on it. Kano Jigoro did the same and founded judo. Mainstream aikido may not have any competitive edge and has an overall pacifist outlook, but that is not the end-all, be-all of the matter. Tomiki aikido use tanto randori, where one practicioner is armed and the other unarmed - It's a point scoring exercise, to teach the spirit of "Shinken Shobu" (真剣勝負 - A duel with live blades or a serious duel.)

Karate use kumite, judo use randori, kendo use shiai. All are competitive in nature, the fact that good manners and etiquette are used before and after a bout does not constitute all gendai budo being pacifist in nature. Look at the gendai budo of jukendo for instance - The Japanese art of bayonet fighting.




This is why U.S.M.C. Maj. Bristol, director of the marine corp martial arts program studies koryu and teaches principles and elements of it's teachings to his marines, since he feels that certain ethics and mindsets have been watered down in the modern military training doctrine.

 

Don't get me wrong Kugosuko, I am not denying the quality and ideas of the training. I am positive it is excellent and it practicioners are superb. I am questioning the idea of authenticity put forward by ScottUK.
His belief that he practices the same arts as done for 100s of years in japan is impossible to verify and as you said the philosophy has changed and therefore any claim to authenticity is invalid. Since the art is not practiced in the same enironment or with the same spirit of the original.

 

Just my twopenneth worth to the general debate but doing different arts at different clubs for five minutes at a time isn't the same as musha shugyo.

 

Kogusoku,

That pretty much sums it up. Thanks.

 

The info of where and what I trained was right there in the thread scott played detective to drag up. I might have told you if he hadn't gone all Columbo on it and you hadn't repeatedly kept asking in the tone of some inquisition. I don't need prior approval and vetting from anyone to answer a thread here. Just that i own the sword in question (pk+) and have done JSA is enough isn't it?

What more is or should be relevent to basically say 'yeah it's a good sword'?

However you dice that it is still a personal opinion of a bit of kit so will be subjective regardless of anything else.

To answer you I had 5 years of JSA at zenkyoshin ryu. What else will get your approval to comment on a sword i own?

I answered you regard 'why should i be listened to over anyone else'

everything else is not worth adressing, I hope your friend gets a sword he's happy with . Sorry if you don't like my perception. But really that is how it comes across for those not 'into it'. I also mostly post here from work. i remember telling you I'd get back to your enquiries. But it was ALL covered in the thread scottuk posted. I seriously figured you'de read it anyway and get your precious info. I don't respond well to over the top and unecessary badgering. You can ask all you like but it is how it is done. I replied jokingly once, I was intend to give you the info you craved so much but you sounded so desperate. I have also seen it from you before. repeating the same questions over and over. So don't expect people to not leave you dangling a bit if you come over like that. Its hounding. I have nothing to hide about the training.

If you have sincere questions about the history I refer you to what i said previously. I am not hiding anything about it or have anything to hide and i commented my position fully in the thread that was dug up. End of.

Anything else you don't already know now and need to know so you can get my opinion on a sword i own and use?

Nope. If you do pm it.

If people need vetting before posting an opinion here get a sticky put up or something where people can be stamped for 'opinion approval' or some 'opinion rating' system of your choice.

 

I never said it was the same - only 'still valid'.

Surely after 5 years of keiko you would know the name of the ryuha that this 'JSA' you studied and where it came from?

As for your opinions on the PK range, I'm sure we have exhausted that and delivered our own opinions are are very clear on what the PK is.