What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?

Yeah, you adding to the discussion sorta makes it crap.

 

da clinch

In the "style" of Hapkido we do...yes we do practice from the clinch...we have drills to control the clinch, drills to break the clinch, drills to free your arms from the clinch, drills to balance yourself from the clinch, etc....

Knees, elbows and kicks to deliver from the clinch....

and a slew of throws and takedowns to do from the clinch....some of those include:

neck throw
twisting head throw
baseball bat throw
sacrifice throws....six versions
under hooking shoulder throw
shoulder throw
two arm shoulder throw
wheel throw
flying neck throw
and a few more that I don't want to take the time to lay out right now......
clinching is a big part of our training....I don't like to clinch that much but it's crazy that people want to grab me when I try to get in close and squeeze their necks!!!! I don't know what's wrong with them!!!!
Michael Tomlinson
zdragon.bitbytenibble.com

 

throws

also on the point of throws.....I come from the old Korea Hapkido Association lineage and we have WAY MORE than 7 basic throws....heck there are 5 different versions of the basic hip throw alone!!! There are a LOT of throws in the old KHA curriculum....
Michael Tomlinson
zdragon.bitbytenibble.com

 

One of the interesting things I noticed where I trained was that in the 7 basic (Yudo) throws, there were a lot of variations... sort of a "if you miss this, go here" type of thing. Still the same basic concept, but with a changed grip or even location.

 

that's also one of the beauties of it.....if you stamp a technique in your mind and say I Will do this technique then you are not reacting and flowing but being mentally static....knowing all the variations let's you flow and react and then utilize what comes up in the natural flow of the confrontation....
Michael Tomlinson
zdragon.bitbytenibble.com

 

That Pro Hapkido stuff is BS for this argument. You and the other Hapkido practioners here list eye-gouging, groin attacks, and hair pulling among good techniques. This Pro-Hapkido, which as you mentioned is a sport, makes no sense to justify anything in your argument, as it is more an amateur MMA competition that anything. The rules outlaw the techniques you mentioned, and I did not see any joint lock takedowns or anything of the sort.

In addition, these tournaments allow practitioners of different arts to play in the tournament, therefore they may as well call it Pro-Wrestling.

 

Its so funny to read here and in Bullshido all this stuff about HKD not being tested in a sports environment. Most of the adults that have studied and served our country or the police force and down to security guards and night club gigs have used the heck out of it. I know Many police officers that use it all the time. I dont know any point fighter that really have used their skills. As a matter of fact from the Gracie story to Tyson breaking his hand it seems to end up that great ring fighters DONT translate to real life.
So over and over I read well you dont use it. Wrong! the techniques came from proven fights. Were well proven on the streets of an ugly transition period in Korea and have been used a lot in real applications and still are.
No problem asking question that may or may not be relevent but come on. Go research prison guard training. See if they want to go to ground as a starting point. Research what the DEA in San Diego trains. Go see what real applications are being tested then come back with this stuff. I like ground work so If my friends or drunk cousin wants to tussle I can go there but no way on the street.

Sorry...all good now...

 

Apparently you're confusing arguments here. I did not bring up Pro-Hapkido to justify the use of eye gouges or any other such technique. That would be silly, wouldn't it? This was more in reference to your earlier comments about arts that are sport-tested. In fact, I never said anything about eye gouges other than to mock Korpy's use of tired Bullshido phrases. (Korpy used to take HKD in case you didn't know.) But since you guys seem to be obsessed with it, eye gouges and groin attacks ARE good techniques in the right situation. They are not the be-all end-all, but in a self-defense situation, I wouldn't hesitate to make ground chuck out of someone's testes. Denying that they have any use is just being illogical.

Now, I'm sure Georges St. Pierre could kick my butt even if I could use every dirty trick in the book, but he's a professional fighter. How many of those are walking around in an average segment of the population?

Huh? Make sense please.

Of course, you're the same guy who though Hapkidoists should do well in Judo tournaments because Hapkido teaches throws. I guess by that logic Muay Thai fighters should feel right at home in boxing competitions. After all, both arts teach punching.

 

The Army trains BJJ and I believe the NYPD and some branches of the FBI do too. Not to mention the known partnership between the Gracies and the PDs in Cali.

 

Actually I can't find anything about the NYPD or FBI right now so forget I said that.

 

Putting to one side that what I am reading is the same sort of "hyping" of MMA that I have seen for a number of years, perhaps its time for a few facts, yes?

1.) Accepting that CHOI Yong Sul brought his material from Japan to Korean and characterized it as "yawara" we can accept three things as fact.
a.) That what we are talking about in the Hapkido arts are activities that have a foundation in combat and not sport. These are two very different pursuits despite superficial similarities. Combat does not translate neatly to sport nor does sport translate neatly to combat.

2.) Whether one agrees that Choi studied DRAJJ or "yawara" of a more generalized application, both arts were particularly sensitive to the grappling of both ju-jutsu and judo of that time. The result of this sensitivity is that no small number of hapkiyusool level Hapkido addresses the matter of being grabbed by someone who was facile in either ju-jutsu, judo or sumo (not the sport by the same name).

3.) My own personal experience is that not a few of the threads such as this one here are predicated on a very small amount of information as well as training in the Hapkido arts. Speaking with my teacher's hat on, I can say that people who are sincerely dedicated to learning and mastering Hapkido are few and none. It is not an easy art to learn, is very demanding, and is rarely appropriate for conflict resolution. Despite years of training, in the end, it is very unlikely that a person will be presented with a situation where using the Hapkido arts to their full capacity is either warranted or possible.

As far as answering the question posed in the first post, the short answer is "yes". However, neither the partner, the rules, the judges or the referee would accept the response, since the goal of the response would be to stop the fight--- as efficiently and effectively as possible. Put another way.... if one saw a fight stopped because of a foul, it would probably be "bad sport" but it would probably be "good Hapkido".

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Well, well ,well if it isn't JimH

Hello JimH how are you? Still spouting the same BS?

Two years ago you were spouting the same Gracie story at itf-online. You were put straight back then by someone who knew the truth regarding the whole matter. And now here you are again repeating the same lies just to promote your combat hapkido. It's all very sad. its also very disrespectful to a martial artist who has proved himself time and time again in the toughest arena.

Why do you do it?

PS do you still think you would destroy Mike Tyson in a street fight?

 

If I am following JimH's logic, it would seem that the only way one could train would be full-contact with one's partner wearing a "red suit" (IE. fully padded with padded helmet). These are pretty popular among the self-defense set who need to teach people how to protect themselves against street violence. They are expensive --- and damn hot to work in---- but its a thought.

However, what I am thinking is how probable is it that a person will be called upon to use lethal or maiming force? In my own experience this is the very fact that makes traditional MA such a challenge. There is no sport application in traditional MA so that most of the venues that would offer reinforcement to keep training simply don't exist. I think many people quit because they either hunger for recognition and regard for what they can do, or--- if they are very passionate about their training--- they get tired of having to listen to sport-oriented wannabees talk about what they could do if the fight was "for real".

Lastly, I really don't think this thread is about what Hapkido people might do in a clinch. Rather, I think what we have is a thinly-veiled advertisement for how MMA (aka "martial wrestling"), once again, can do what no traditional MA can do. This gets rather tiresome, but I guess everbody needs a hobby, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Wow MasL,
The expert on all Korean arts with experience in None,sorry you claim a red belt right?, and nothing constructive to say or put into a site,lol.
Still punching the bag alone in the the leisure center??LOL

Hey MasL,
You know you say that I am still on about the Gracie incident,but it is still relevent as if YOU DO NOT train the way you will fight you will not Do what you IMAGINE you will do.(Renzo is a case in point)

Did you see ,or hear ,the Gracies NO HAVE a STREET INSTRUCTORS PROGRAM,because what you DO IN THE RING according to Their New Ad WILL NOT WORK on the STREET.
According to their Ads a few weeks of Training in their NEW street Program will not only quilify you to instruct but you will be able to beat THEIR BLACK BELTS ,LOL.

And They Had Everyone Believing GBJJ was Street and Ring usable.LOL

I am sure you will have Great Input Here Mas,LOL

 

Quote Bruce Simms
"If I am following JimH's logic, it would seem that the only way one could train would be full-contact with one's partner wearing a "red suit" (IE. fully padded with padded helmet). "

Sorry Sir,I am not advocating any form of training,nor am I advocating using a red suit or any other type of suit.
(though we do use a Fist suit at times for stick work,to allow full and complete use of technique)

Never wore a Red suit or any other suit in Reality Based Training either.

At our school we do not wear Protective gear yet we are able to implement strikes we would use on the street,use control and when our partner taps you slow down the motion use complete follow through to completion.
(similar to the Training technique used By Ti larkin in his TFT training and or Mr Perkins in his Guided Chaos)


Slowing down but continuing the attack instills the correct follow through,instills the correct Mind,muscle follow though.

How is it done at your Hapkido school?
Do you kick the opponent lightly and he just reacts?
Do you apply a lock and the opponent throws themselves ober or taps and is realeased?
(a partner throwing themselves over is not realistic for street is it,and develops a mindset that this is what a real person will do,which is definately not)

If I am grabbed,or I use a preemptive move prior to them laying hands on me, say in a right hand hay maker attack,one of the more common first strikes

I would enter in towards the right shoulder,make contact with the full body in a Blauer Type SPEAR,
wrap the opponents right arm with my left,
deliver a right palm strike with control into my partners chest,getting the head to pop up
Deliver a controlled palm heel to my partners chin and slide into fingers into the eyes,
Drive the head,with fingers in the eyes,up,back and over,continuing control till the head meets the floor
maybe even do a leg sweep to speed thee process
Still controlling the opponents right arm i can do a break,control or lock em up depending on my Job and or what I want to do in the situation.

How about when training to crush an opponents legs;
side side the attack or grab to the cold side,start your techbique wjiole you Kick,with control to the partners knee,then instead of taking the leg away,having the partner give an act of reaction,keep your kick on the knee and push in and down driving it into the ground,
even in slow motion you get a skill development and a Full, Complete and Accurate representation of the akill and reaction by your partner.

These techniques are not new,and have been out there for Years,just few care to know and or implement them.

we do not need Gear to do itbut it allows us to use what we will and how we will on the Street,without pretend and with out theory.

Most who Train the Majority of responses under rules and in sport will resort to that which they do Most,reply with a sport based mindset.

Isn't Hapkido about the street and NO RULES

I would be interested in how others train and teach their Hapkido?
If we claim to teach street/realistic Self Defense (which is Hapkidos claim)what do we do?
(surely we do not think we need to resort to suits to teach it do we?)

 

Thanks, Jim:

I think the best way to characterize what we do where I teach is to say that we are constantly, "pushing the edges of the envelope" as it were. There is no way we can go "all out" with the sort of work that we do. However, I can also say that the student is not well served by making an overall policy of "going light" or "holding back". Instead what we have is a policy of "negotiation". What this means is that individuals who are training together decide between the two of them just how hard, fast and how much "authority" is used in their practice. The policy is only that deference is given to the lighter rather than heavier execution or people realign with partners who want to train at the prescribed level. For instance, though PP work is obligated for Cho-Dan, not everyone appreciates the discomfort of having PP work used in unison with the intended technique. This is a negotiable item. The same goes for, say a shoulder throw. Some people like to get slammed and in turn get slammed, and some don't. Its a negotiable item between two partners. Does this help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Quote MasL,
"PS do you still think you would destroy Mike Tyson in a street fight? "

Sorry I missed the reply in my first response to you.

As I said in my response to you when you first posed that question to me:

We do not have the advantage on the street as in sport to Know our attackers or their skill level.

If Mike Tyson were a Street attacker and he attacked Me on the street I would respond with a Mindset and Determination to take him out ,period.

I bleieve my Mindset and My Skills can beat ANYONE on the street,including a Mike Tysaon or mike Tysaon type attacker (of which there are many coming out of jails/prison)

No One is UNBEATABLE, if that were so we would not have REMATCHES in the SPORT FIGHT GAMES would we.

I do not think of a Tyson as a good street fighter as past showing by him on the street he did not do so well.

If you believe that if attacked by certain people you could not win ,Why the heck Train for the Street?

Since you asked that question to me a WHILE ago I have seen it asked to a few who teach street combatives and they answered the Same as I did to you.
(in the Ring these sport Figures are in their world,on the street They are Not)

 

Quote Bruce Simms:
"I can also say that the student is not well served by making an overall policy of "going light" or "holding back". "

Sir,
We DO NOT have an overall policy of going light or holding back.
We go at the speed doable,and acceptable to both partners,but when pain is applied and they tap or we move into a dangerous or injurious move,(like fingers to the eyes or throat grab) we then slow it down ,but Follow though to completion of the attack and response.

We do also ,as you pointed out, allow students to go ,or not go,as far as they want with the varied training moves and techniques which we teach.

Thank you for the dialogue.

 

Well I've actually never claimed to be an expert in anything JimH. Although I do have experience of TKd as you well know.

As to my grade. I don't claim any. But I didn't make any secret of the fact that the last grade I took in TKd was black tag. And that was many, many years after I took red belt. And was actually something I didn't really want to do and kind of regretted once I'd done it. Broken principles, see JimH.

You know my views on the TKD grading system and that I consider it largely worthless, particularly with regard to the criteria needed for "advancement". Still enough about me.

And I have not now or ever hit a bag in "leisure centre" so I really don't know what you're on about?

With regard to the Gracie incident. You were corrected if I remember correctly by someone called "The Truth" who gave you their version of events. I think you were also urged to drop into the Gracie academy and get a first hand version since you only live a few miles away. I don't think you ever took the suggestion up did you?

Yet still you feel the need to repeat it.

As for the other stuff you mention. Without references I couldn't possible comment

 

I think I asked the question in response to your claim of invincibility on the "street". It was a sort of "So you think you could take Iron Mike?" thing. It didn't just come out of the blue LOL.

LOl seriously JimH my money would be on Mike. No offence.

So no one is unbeatable.. except you, or rather your mindset?

Interesting