I arrived at that conclusion because it's weird a single post about Harvard Medical's study and how it relates to internal MA (AS I UNDERSTAND IT) created a firestorm of criticism about Tai Chi, followed by criticism of HMS itself (e.g. "puff piece"). That surprised me because, you know, the source and data were both solid. I wasn't posting my own opinions, but those of respected researchers outside of China. That turned into a roundtable of "whatabout"ism. Well, what about skateboarding? What about kicking? What about so many other things? None of those fit the topic, but kept being batted around as, like Aaradia put it, a weird way of criticizing Tai Chi when there was no real reason to do so. And then the claims that I'm making Tai Chi out to be magical/the greatest which actually never happened. I'm posting medical research on the topic, all of which was peer reviewed stuff I might add. I've noticed this is a trend...I bring up something I found about Tai Chi, and a posse of the usual suspects poo poo it. First it was Jake Mace's video. Then it was Patrick Swayze, and thankfully I've been ignoring that thread successfully and will continue to do so. But now, it's a good faith effort to post medical research about "internal", and this is what I got. Lampooned, talked down to, and then of course, blamed for it all. Social media mob rule in a nutshell. Tarred and feathered is how it feels, and I know I'm not the only person who's registered here and gets treated as such. It's a shame because looking at the last few years, a lot of people stopped posting here for the same reason. I didn't call anyone names at all. In fact, I've gone out of my way to be polite and respectful since I've joined. And I've certainly not always gotten the same level of polite, respectful consideration. I think people just get carried away when they know a lot more about a subject than a newbie like myself. Listen, there are respectful and disrespectful ways of critiquing other people's opinions. And not everyone in this thread, or the Swayze thread, is being respectful in tone. And I know this because I'm not stupid, and I know when people are talking to me in a condescending way. Making personal observations about me, regardless of what I post, is uncalled for. I won't name names but some of you are really transparently trolling and haranging not just me, but other posters. A little self-awareness would go a long way, I learned a long time ago not to pick beefs with other boxers over anything, not because it starts fights but because it simply causes tension and takes away from the love of the sport. So, not picking (or getting baited into) beefs about Tai Chi. Just giving up on that, I'd rather just train it in person, and not get lectured on MAP about it and how "uncritical" I supposedly am. I'll figure it out on my own without anyone's so called "help". If you want to help me with Tai Chi, post a video or some research or your own insight. I will be all eyes and ears. And yes I know SOME of you are actually trying to have a good faith conversation about topics, and not see me browbeaten into submission. A lot of old boxing forums are now gone for that same reason, everyone wants to FIGHT but only a few can actually keep it civil. Save that fighting spirit for the ring and mats, folks, here is where we should be communing instead of verbally judo chopping each other for giggles. I apologize for even posting in the thread. And I'm spicy today because I lost my Ipod Nano. So just leave me be, thanks.
Well, I don't have a lot of time to post a long thread. But I have a couple of quick notes. I have to agree with Grond in that I have noticed this happens on MAP regularly. People ask for studies, but no matter what the study or who the source is, it is never good enough. And people find some way to discount it. I would have to go back and reread this thread, but I don't remember Grond saying TCC was the end all and be all magical thing. I think some straw man arguing is going on here. And Youknowwho originally said that TCC wasn't good for developing balance, something about it doesn't have enough kicks to do so. And later backed off of that and focused on the second part of what he said. And youknowwho DOES have a history of knocking TCC for a lot of weird things. I have called it out in previous threads. (I could dig up the quotes if I had the time.) For a person who claims to be a TCC practitioner, IMO he is awfully down on it a lot of the time. Look through the threads on TCC in MAP. And yeah, I personally found the whole skateboarding thing odd. This is a martial arts forum, I could care less about skateboarding. Does it develop balance? I don't know. I do know I am far more likely to be out of all physical action because I broke a bone on a skateboard than the balance development I get from both my martial arts. Plus, I have absolutely no interest in buying or using a skateboard at all. So, would I consider that more efficient? No, not for me. So, yeah, are there other ways to develop balance or other skills besides martial arts? Sure. But I am here to discuss martial arts, so being told to go skateboard because someone thinks it is better than martial arts? Whatever. It does make me roll my eyes. And then I feel the limitations of martial arts forums. That said, Grond, respectfully, you really need to look at your own behavior with regards to being disrespectful to others IMO. Claiming you are nothing but respectful when you compared people disagreeing with you - oh what was it- some disparaging thing about us acting like boys in a bar? And what you said to El Medico here with the "master" thing was not cool or respectful either. IMO you have not always been as polite as you think you have been. The Jake Mace and Swayze stuff being considered bad stuff is widespread - not just on MAP. And I tried to get you to talk constructively by asking to focus on discussing specifics on technique in the Swayze thread, but you ignored that and kept on with a lot of unrelated fandom about him and taking it REALLY personally to a level that was really odd. (My Sifu mentioned how bad that clip was in a class just last week. I just started laughing. He asked me why. I had to try to sum up that thread to him.) I tried to get it back on topic in a TCC constructive discussion. And you ignored it. And a lot of people with a lot of experience really did try to be helpful to explain things constructively with regards to good and bad TCC in the discussion on Jake Mace. Mod Note: If you think there is personal insults or trolling going on, use the report function so that the entire mod team takes a look at it. No one on MAP is above review, and that includes moderators and Admin/ listowners. I can tell you I have asked the mod team to take a close look at this thread. (How to let honest heated conversation go on and where the line is before it becomes being "browbeaten into submission" is actually far more difficult to figure out than you may think btw. I find it one of the most challenging things as a moderator. I don't always get it right. I am always looking to improve on this. And it really isn't something to get into here in detail, but there are a whole lot of nuances to figuring that out.) So anyways, I may need to be reminded by my fellow mods that I helped take this thread off topic. But I wanted to address some things brought up. To end this post, I think there are studies that have value to show that Tai Chi is beneficial to your health. Valid studies by well respected medical sources. Other exercises can be beneficial as well. The most beneficial has to do with an individual's circumstances and and how much they like said exercise enough to do it regularly. There are a lot of varying factors that will decide what is most efficient for each individual person. It is not a one size fits all with regards to efficiency because we don't all fit into one mold. Take care everyone. I wish you all the best!
I like a lot of what you say but do wish you wouldn't make such false blanket statements on occasion. "Falling" is a major health hazard for old people and even a mild stumble on flat carpeted ground can cause multiple broken bones (wrists, forearms, collar bones, hips, pelvis), concussion, facial damage and, although often hidden, a massive drop in confidence, feeling independent and sense of self that lingers even if the physical injuries largely heal. They sell alarms for older people to wear so if they fall and can't get up they can alert someone precisely because it is so bad for them. A fall can sometimes be the start of the "end" for some old people as they fall, get injured, end up in hospital, lose confidence, stop moving as much, stop going out, start to deteriorate, other health concerns get worse, you get a "snowball" effect and some months later they die. I had an elderly relative fall and hit her face in the kitchen early in the morning. This caused a nosebleed. She sat having a nosebleed into multiple kitchen bowls for 5 hours because she didn't want to bother anyone (as old people can be sometimes although she was probably mentally confused too) until a neighbour happened to call round, realise something was wrong and alert my family. By that time she'd lost so much blood she needed to go into hospital, have her nose cauterized and needed a blood transfusion. She was in hospital for over a week and was never the same again in terms of confidence and independence (she was the old person in her block of flats who used to help the other old people, get their papers, meds, shopping etc). Had another relative fall while in the bathroom and wasn't discovered until the next day and she had to use towels as blankets to keep herself warm through the night. These aren't uncommon stories for old people and yet they are falls my kids do 10 times a day and we as martial artists probably do all the time.
Absolutely right. I think that is spot on. A sub-optimal exercise you do regularly is FAR more beneficial than the best exercise you never do. I did a short Tai chi course a few years back (Wudang short form from a student of Dan Docherty's organisation iirc). I did it in the interests of cross training and finding common movements with the karate and TKD I know. In my early 40's I was one of the youngest people there as the rest of the class were largely retired people looking for an interesting and engaging way to keep moving and some "hippy" types around my age looking for some of the "mystical" stuff. None of those people wanted MMA or even trad martial arts in a gi. They wanted something mentally and physically engaging and challenging. Something with a soft touch and gentleness. And Tai chi was perfect for that. I'm pretty sure when my high kicking "active" TKD days are behind me I'll naturally gravitate towards Tai chi (and that's not to say that I think Tai chi is "easy").
It's not about discounting studies, it's about actually reading what's in them. I stand by calling that original article about Dr. Wayne by his publisher a puff piece. How many links to research were there? Zero. How many links to buy his book were on that page? It was an advert. Trying to frame that as Harvard Medical School endorsing Tai Chi as a medical intervention for Parkinsons or osteoporosis is dishonest. It's an understandable mistake for readers to make, because it is presented in a way that encourages that assumption. First, Harvard Health Publications is not the same as Harvard Medical School, as I said previously, it is the consumer health and wellbeing publishing arm. Second, calling Dr. Wayne an associate professor of Harvard Medical School is a generous interpretation. He is an associate professor of the Lee Kum Sheung Center for Health and Happiness: Peter Wayne, PhD I can't find any bio that states what Dr. Wayne's degree or PhD is in (which is a bit suspicious), but he is an alumni of this college: Areas of Study Dr. Wayne is founder and director of the Tree of Life Tai Chi Center: https://www.treeoflifetaichi.com/index.php . This is a conflict of interest, as he stands to gain financially from positive research outcomes, not to mention book sales. That doesn't mean he is dishonest, but it does mean that replication of his studies is important. Finally, when you actually look at the research, it is all pilot studies and preliminary investigations with relatively small sample sizes. The conclusion of all of the ones with positive outcomes for Tai Chi state that larger studies are needed to investigate some promising results. Here is a list of research papers associated with Harvard Medical School and Tai Chi: Harvard[AD] AND tai chi - Search Results - PubMed I have nothing against Tai Chi, and think it would be great if it were proven to have benefits for people with Parkinson's or osteoporosis. However, I do have a problem with alternative medicine grifters and the wellbeing industry in general. Blurring the lines between solid evidence and small pilot studies is not cool. It smells like a sales tactic to me. It's not about the studies, it's about how they are spun by people out for profit.
You should not put anti-Taiji label on me. I have explained what's in Taiji and what's not. It's my opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me. When did MAP start to dis-allow different opinion? And what you said, "youknowwho DOES have a history of knocking TCC for a lot of weird things." was not cool or respectful either. IMO you have not always been as polite as you think you have been. I assume we should talk about the message and leave the messenger alone. A: This is what I understand about ... B: You are wrong. "You" must have ... A: Please discuss the subject and leave "you and I" out of discussion.
Youknowwho. I am sorry you feel this is personal. You certainly can report me to the other mods if you feel I have broken TOS. I do not feel I have as I am discussing your post history with regards to statements about TCC, not you as a person. I am discussing your messages. I do get tired of going on TCC threads and seeing a lot of "TCC doesn't work" posts. Just like I tire of being on traditional MA threads and seeing non traditional artists knocking traditional training like forms practice. No one said your opinion is disallowed. However, my opinions about what you say about TCC is also allowed. Cloudz disagrees with me frequently about TCC. Such is the way of forums. Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss this further. I made my point with regards to what was going on in the thread, but will not go down this rabbit hole here.
In fairness to YouKnowWho, he didn't say that TCC doesn't work, in fact no-one said TCC doesn't work. He just said that in his opinion it is good for static balance, ie. Keeping your balance, but there are better ways to train dynamic balance, ie. regaining your balance. The example of holding kicks you gave is a static balance exercise, so maybe you missed his point?
... and anyone who says skateboarding is irrelevant to martial arts has never taught a skateboarder! Movement is movement, and skateboarding has more skill transfer than many other sports. If you get a skateboarder in as a new student, a lot of work you would normally have to do is already in place.
People debating and explaining what studies mean etc doesn't mean they are discounting it, it means they are exploring it, this is especially important when they are being used to infer things they do not support. That's what a debate forum is for. This is a very disappointing post of yours.
Nope. I think perhaps some people here missed this part of his post before the next line that talked about regaining balance. the example I gave was in response to this. Later post seemed to backtrack this and say it is good for static balance.
Hmm, an interesting topic, that seems to have strayed a little. Going back to the original question of "what is internal", I think icefield's comment from the first page carries a lot of weight: bold added for emphasis A tai chi teacher once told me something, that I think goes hand in hand with what icefield is saying (apologies if I have misinterpreted your writing!) "Most martial arts start with force and develop into softness, but tai chi starts with softness and develops in to force." From my own training history and perspective, I would say my own experience has bourn this out. For example; When I first started practicing martial arts, I began with Karate. I can't remember the exact grading syllabus, but for example, say for my first grade I had to learn how to do a front kick. As a beginner, my teacher wanted me to focus on the basic mechanics of the kick. Could I do it without falling over? Could I generate a respectable level of power against a pad/shield, relative to my ability? Once I passed that grading, the development of my front kick would not end. The technique would be constantly refined. I'd stop clumsily throwing a robotic kick, and eventually it would become a fluid, powerful, connected movement. I see that as "starting with force and develop into softness". When I started tai chi, the focus was reversed. A lot of work on softening the body, correcting alignments in posture, coordinating movement with structure - all before I even looked at "seperate feet" - the idea being that, when I come to learning the physical technique, my body already has the pre-requisites tai chi "needs". I see this as "starting with softness and developing into force". Do I think tai chi is an "internal" martial art? By definition, no - it can't be (that is, "genuine" "t3e re4l" tai chi). Tai Chi (the concept) is the interplay of yin and yang. Focusing on "internal" is separating yin from yang. And from that, we see in tai chi chuan a lot of "masters" who are not able to fight - because by buying into the "internal" schpiel, they've completely cut off half of tai chi - the "developing into force" part. Perhap's they're doing Yin Quan instead?
Here's my take; The integration of internal training is the difference, bit what is that? Well it's esoteric training; mind, breath, cultivation, how they are used in and on the body and in of themselves; what is the involvement and how deep can that be taken, how can it be integrated with physicality and more specifically martial physical movement and prowess. Make no mistake this is the spiritual aspect of Chinese cultural traditions rearing its head. This was roundly rejected, particularly strongly after what was seen as the shortcomings of the Boxers uprising. This has almost turned into a denial from the majority now. Materially in the end it can amount to nothing, but the difference is in the Quality, the difference is in the path and the journey. The focus. One of the major issues now is that a lot of practitioners aren't necessarily in it for any particular real or deep internal cultivation which can and should lead to spiritual awakening. Materially tacking on internal style supplementary training like qigong, meditation, yoga and the like can have perhaps an almost identical effect. But it's a step further in qualitative and what can be a strong experiential difference to attempt an integration of esoteric principles and practices into whatever nook and cranny you can find, in what is in the first place an external (physical) paradigm. Different beliefs produce different paradigms (exoteric and esoteric), and every martial system is like its own little paradigm. However we all work with the same stuff, with the same sets of tools and within the same limitations etc. Take bagua circle walking for example; now there simply are not many martial arts styles that will compell you to a martially integrated practice ancient taoists monks used for spiritual awaking. These kind of practices can have genuine energetic and spiritual effects and aren't to be taken lightly in my experience. Which is about personal growth and change. In that respect it isn't special because there are many roads that can lead there, but every road and all that.
And if you're still stuck trying to compare martial techniques, you are woefully off track and missing it by a mile.
Hypothetical question: do you think boxing could be taught as an internal martial art, if someone had the knowledge and desire to do so?
My taijiquan shifu shortened that a bit during a conversation about Neijia and Waijia... if trained right, hard goest to soft, soft goes to hard. Translation to clarify; if trained right they both end up in the same place
I forgot about these claims of being "disingenuous". So I took five seconds to check and sure enough, "Harvard Health Publishing, the official media and publishing division of the Harvard Medical School of Harvard University" And here is Dr. Wayne's bio as a Harvard Medical School Director. It was pretty easy to find. You posted it. Peter Wayne, PhD "Director of the Osher Center for Integrative Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Brigham and Women’s Hospital" So I'm going to conclude the Osher Center for Integrative Medicine at Harvard Medical and Dr. Wayne as authoritative going forward. No hard feelings, hopefully, but I listen to doctors. And having watched many discussions now about Tai Chi, I believe its practicioners may actually muddy the issues surrounding it. There is a lot of talk and conjecture, meanwhile the real science going on behind it, people don't want to talk about. Just more about how it's boxing, how it's wrestling, how it's inner peace. How about we focus on facts? It can lower stress, fatigue, blood pressure, increase balance, etc? These are all measurable things. Fact: Dr. Wayne works at Harvard, and Harvard publishes his works, and everyone here should show a little more respect and maybe turn that cold, inspective eye back on yourselves. Because if internal means anything at all, Osher Integrative at Harvard would learn the truth, right?
I don't think so, unless internal involves getting your whole body getting tenderized several times a week by fighters younger, faster, and angrier than you. My Tai Chi training, while significant and progressive, is totally not the same. And I'm very thankful it's different, because Tai Chi turned out to be the best post-boxing workout I've ever encountered. It's good for loosening before, during, and after. And it's made my clinchwork and footwork better. And I feel younger. Relax the mind, relaxes the body, nothing a boxer needs more. I sleep well now, like a baby. I can hear Labron James voice in my head as it hits the pillow. I'm going to take this entire topic in a new direction and ask ya'll: who stretched today? Does everyone here understand the importance of loosening muscle fibers daily? The dangers of stagnated muscle knots and how they inhibit blood circulation? Why deep tissue massage causes tingling across the skins surface and how you can stimulate the same doing Tai Chi? Because the first time I felt "the tingles" which is locker room talk for post deep tissue improved cardiovascular circulation to the extremities and skin surface, I had my first taste of that "spiritual awakening" Tai Chi claims. And I liked it. Of course, thousands online are going to yell "that's not it!". But I won't believe them.
Okay, let's listen to the doctors. You tell me where Dr. Wayne got his medical degree and I'll take it all back. Deal?
