WEKAF or low armour?

Being new to the FMA I am interested in those people here that have worked in both these formats, and your opinions and ideas about the two 'sporting' formats we have in the FMA (pros and cons would be good). I have only seen footage of Dog Brothers work, read about Black Eagle in the UK many years ago in MAI, not seen any WEKAF, but my early understanding is that they are quite different. The sporting route is something that I am very interested in having a go at as it seems an appropriate way to test my learning with a bit of pain chucked in for good measure.

Paul

 

Well as you say both are different in their own right, being the founder and main instigator of the Black Eagles and having won just a few WEKAF titles I hope I can give you a brief pro's and con's of both styles of sparring.

WEKAF is a sport, lets not misunderstand this, but it does have it's benefits. (Pro's) It teaches you timing, speed striking, evasion and defence (if used correctly) and is one of the safest ways to train actual stick combat. Don't let anyone tell you it does not hurt, trust me when I say, against the right opponent it can be very painfull. If you don't beleive me, then lets play as they say. Hehehe. Very good for training your corto combat skills and a safe way to train your medio and largo skills and to top it all off it is fun too. There are some very good exponents of the FMA that have had very successfull careas in the WEKAF format.

Con's: Far to many people nowadays rely to much on the armour and forget that if this were for real they would not get 70% of the techniques they use in, in a real fight that is. They become too complaisent and feel that they can take a multitude of strikes. If you play to the armour then you will pick up some very bad habits. There are some people who have one the occasional title that would not survive in a real encounter, the retire undefeated as they say claiming this and that, but in reality all they had on the day was luck, not skill. So if you do not treat this as a training tool and as a fun but sometimes painfull way to hone certain skills they you will not improve your FMA skills, as a matter of fact you could hinder them in some respects.

LIMITED ARMOUR, LIMITED RULES E.G. BLACK EAGLE / DOG BROTHERS ETCPro's: this is as close as your safely going to get when it comes to actual combat FMA fighting, it teaches you very quickley what does and what does not work in a real stick encounter, but it is a very painfull way to train your skills, I would not recommend this to anyone unless they have a good understanding and some good basic skills in FMA, becuase of the use of the head gear it does make the fight last longer which in turn makes it more pain full which in turn is a good wake-up call for those who think they can stick fight. It will teach you that if you don't have good long and medium range combat skills then you will find it very hard to fight in close. A good training tool again that teaches you other aspects of combat stick fighting, but is very painfull and not for the light hearted. It takes either a fool or a mad man to play in this arena. It also teaches you just how resiliant the human body really is and how much pain it can endure. A good confidence booster and ego checker as they say.

Con's: because of the use of limited armour it is not quite the real thing, although it is as close as you can safely get it does have a higher risk level of receiving major injuries. Also becuase of the use of limited armour and especially the head gear, many seem to think that it is ok to take a few bashes to the head in order to break in to the grappling area, with a total disregard to the actual stick pounding down on your head. Take the head gear off and the other limited protection and throw the rules out of the window and see how many of these guys actually go to ground as they say, I bet it would be far far fewer that is claimed by some.

Like any format that has rules or basic guide lines it has it's draw backs and it's bonuses but those who rely on it totally as being the real deal do so at their own risk. And like the WEKAF or even the ARPI (Padded Stick) format it is fun (for those with the odd bolt missing that is).

I would suggest that you start by playing in the WEKAF format, then once your confidence is up with that format, play in the padded stick format and then once your confidence is up with that format combine the 2 and play in the limited armour format (if you have a bolt loose that is) but always remember they are just training tools, they are not eh be all and end all of real FMA stick combat.

And if you are really really loose in the head there is always 'Old School', not to be recommended to the normal intelegent human being though.

I hope this helps.

Best regards

Pat

 

uh, um, duh intelligent, uhm.....what are we talking about again? i think i took one too many to the head.

seriously though, old school/ juego todo is kind of that dirty family secret that everybody knows about but no one ever really mentions. it has it's pros and cons.

pros: this is the real thing. the only difference between this and a duel is i guess the intent. as i always say to my sparring partner: "tawa tawa tayo pero kung may mapikon, ayan na. ospital na." (we laugh now but if someone get's p!ssed, that's it. we'll end up in the hospital or worse). it teaches you speed, timing, strength, and defense (like keepin your hand moving).

cons: serious injury. really serious injury. sometimes debilitating. could be fatal.

 

I completely agree with Pat and Shootdog, they have way more experience than me. I'm just chipping in that I really enjoy using the ARPI sticks with minimal armour. You can get better stick mobility with ARPI than most padded sticks with a lesser risk of injury. It still hurts a lot when you do it right.
I think ARPI sticks with minimal armour can be a really useful addition to training routines.
There's a little supplier called Escrimador Supplies who provide great ARPI sticks.

 

Thanks for the info guys.

Another quickie, is the WEKAF and low armour single stick or double? I see from the Dogbrothers site at their pack gatherings, it seems to be whatever you want to use.

Are there rules specific to each format? Certain stikes permitted or not, time limits and the like?

I will let you know what I am going through sparring wise as my journey through the FMA evolves.


Paul

 

I normaly compete in ARPI tournaments. The padded stick allows for minimal armoring (helmet and groin guard or less). Padded sticks sting like holy hell and don't let anyne tell you otherwise. Very useful if you want to be able to hold a pen at work or school the next day (most of the time).

Padded sticks allow for strikes na may malisya or with malice. this means strikes to the hands, joints, and various other soft bits. you can do this witout any extra armor and without having anyone go to the doctor.

The biggest down side of the ARPI gear is that the padded sticks bend. You end up with shots that should have been blocked but weren't because the stick bent. THis changes the way people block.

Just remember that this is a sport. It teaches you important aspects of combat but that ain't combat. For safety's sake, realism was sacrificed in certain aspects, as with any other combative sport.

 

Can you narrow down or post a link to the actual rules for ARPI??

target areas allowed, round times, who it's judged, that kinda stuff

 

I have an ARPI handbook for judges/referees but I am too lazy to type, and I can't find a link on te net. To summarize the rules:
3-rounds x 2 minutes, w 1 minute break in between
Winner per round is decided on having the most points, or the first to earn 5 points. The idea is that in a real fight, you don't need one whole round to put down an opponent. It discourages kamikaze type attacks.
You can get penalized for grabbing an opponent's stick.
Your opponent wins a round if you are disarmed twice.
I think I better check that handbook before I post some more. Something doesn't look quite right. Now, where did I put that book?

 

Ta Much

 

Redbagani, so do they actually stop the round after first to 5 or 2 disarms, or do they allow the whole time to pass?

Also about the WEKAF armour, maybe it's just me, but I find that it is also a good cv workout just moving around fast in it

 

ARPI Rules

Once an opponent is ahead by 5 points (scored by hitting legal parts of the body from head to toe, yes, toes) or disarmed twice, the round is stopped. I have seen a match where a guy lost his stick twice and the round ended in less than a minute. A guy who wins two consecutive rounds is made a winner. There is no need for a third round.

Now where is that handbook?

I guess I'll just have to post what i do remember about the rules. It is the fun part - "Fouls"

• No thrusting at the face, throat or groin
  No punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting, foot stomping, stepping on foot, spitting, swearing
  If an opponent delivers a spinning technique, and you 'accidentally' hit the back of his head, that is NOT a foul.

 

Like Raymund Suba, I compete in ARPI matches myself, so I can help you out here.

To add to what RedBagani said, two judges in charge of awarding points are seated at two corners of the square playing area (10 x 10 meters). There's also one referee in the middle who calls the fouls, starts and stops the rounds, etc.

TARGET AREAS: The players may strike almost any area of their opponent's front, but only with the padded stick. Deliberate strikes to the groin and thrusting to the face or throat are forbidden. Points are awarded based on the quality and power of the strike. If it can be considered a maiming or killing blow, delivered with accuracy, power and good form (and if he's not hit at the same time), the player is given one point. It's a race to 5 points in one round, best of three rounds.

Disarming is allowed, but prolonged stick-grabbing is forbidden. Lose your stick once, your opponent gains a point. Twice, and you lose the round. Active jamming, blocking, or pushing with the free hand is also not allowed.

 

Do we have ARPI matches in the UK? or is something individual clubs do on an ad hoc basis?

Paul

 

ArPi rules

In Arnis Philippines full contact rules, a match consists of a maximum of three rounds, where a winner is determined by winning 2 out of 3 rounds.

A round goes for a maximum of 2 minutes, though can end immediately when a winner is already determined. A winner for a round is the first player that gains 5 points, or whose opponent recieves 2 disarms or 3 fouls. If scores, disarms, and fouls are tied at the end of two minutes, the referee and judges conferr with each other and declare a winner by virtue of superiority, use of killing blows (strikes to the head as opposed to the rest of the body), and artistic delivery of strikes.

A point is any strike using the stick to legitemate target areas of the body delivered with correct form- with power, proper timing (simultaneous hits by both players or hits that are immediately countered are not considered), correct posture and art, distance, and attitude. (i.e mindless flailing of the stick is not considered as correct form)

A disarm is called when player loses grip of his/her stick and it touches the ground or goes out of the playing area or comes into possesion of the oppnent.

Aside from what has been stated, other fouls are: grabbing of the opponent's stick (without attempting to disarm), pushing the opponent in any manner, clinching (i.e. any form of grappling), using the butt-end of the stick to strike, stepping outside the playing area, bara-bara (ground and pound, i.e. hitting one target or using one striking angle more than twice in rapid succession), other unsportsmanlike actions as deemed by the referees and/or judges.

Required protective equipment would be a helmet and groin guard for men, and a helmet and chest protector for women. All other protective equipment is optional, and needs approval of the tournament officials.
____________

These rules are the latest version of official rules that I know, from what I remember. I think for the SEA games, they are coming up with a more up-to-date set of rules. For one, I know that they will be starting to require the use of protective gloves in international competition.

Arnis Philippines is still concentrating on the SEA games this year, but will expand to N. America and Europe afterwards. They have some information about this on their website: www.arnisphilippines.com (I hope I'm not violating any forum rules with this link. )

 

Your answering a direct question,

so nope your not

 

NOt yet, but talk to me when I return from the ARPI World Championships in Manila in December this year and I will let you know when and where the first British ARPI championships will be.

Or if you think you will do any good out there PM me and I will look you over as they say.

Best regards

Pat

 

A few weeks into to my FMA experience? Manila in December? What a lovely thought, then I wake up!

Pat, I look forward with anticipation to your tales of Manila in December

Paul

 

Paul,

John Harvey is hosting a WEKAF novices tournament this weekend in Luton, if you're free you may want to go along and have a look, you could even take part if you want. If you (or any body else) are interested I'll post the details

Neil

 

I find training and sparring with a helmet pretty hard going...but i certainly wouldn't want to stop because of this.

in some ways it's actually more of an excellent training aid for the other person than anything else.
it gives us the opportunity to mix it up a little without causing too much harm-and in that respect it's really cool.
any and all armour gives you more chances of striking in a controlled environment and not messing up your partner. A truly cool training aid.

it also brings a lot of stuff to life for the first time when you are just starting out (i remember how de-fanging the snake made a lot more sense after those gloves took a pounding!)


however, i feel incredibly top heavy and have plenty of blindspots when wearing the helmet and sometimes feel like i'd rather risk the lumps and increase my chances of seeing those hits coming by losing the helmet.

the next step then is just the padded sticks.

i feel like i've learnt loads, from angle recognition through to finally 'getting' a move than, when drilled- just didn't sit right.

'course you can always just go for it full on with rattan. it's great but missing classes due to injury sucks.

i'm a complete advocate of the armour and padded sticks, if only as a training aid for the other person. as long as your respectful of who you train with and there's an element of trust there...it's all good.

when it boils down to it: you're hitting someone with something! no matter how hard you do it or what with...it's all good fun! :love:

 

Neil, this weekend is just too short notice for me. I would be interested in future events to have a look. I would appreciate it greatly if you could keep me posted.

Paul