Do you mean that karate (or tode) was taught publicly in those places ? If so, interesting, because I've been under the impression that tode was supposedly a secret art that was taught out of sight, in forests and even graveyards
Not in public. Apparently they often had little wooded areas in the centre of the villages and would practice there at night. I can't remember where I read it though, I'll dig around to see if I can find it.
Ok, quickies: 1. History of the Nunchacku: http://members.tripod.com/~Nunchaku/about_e.htm Note that there are three possibile histories that this presumes. It does debunk the rice flail story with a convincing explanation of why. The horse bridle seems more likely if you wish to tell a farming implement tale. The one issue that I have this narrative is it continues the story that King Shoshin banned weapons. For more on that I suggest reading this article: http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_sai.html When I get a chance I'll try and dig up some of the new Okianwan history books that offer the new translation of the stone table. 2. With the staff, I was in no way trying to discount the connection between China and Okinawa. I was simply pointing out that multiple forms of indigenous stick/staff fighting developed simultaniously. Suggesting that the Chinese somehow created the staff as weapon is just silly. - Matt
Matt, You've done it right. Make a point and back it up as best as possible. I will cease to use the term "farming" or "agricultural" when referring to Okinawan weapons. To be honest, the origin of the weapon was not the central issue for me. My points were to question why traditional Chinese weapons did not make their way over to the Ryukoku islands with the same proliferation as empty hand kung fu training concepts and that traditional Karate weapon practice has little bearing on modern day American self defense application...for me. Others have stated that weapon kata helps empty hand and my response was that mastering the empty hand curriculum, for me, is a life's study, and although I would not ignore the weapon "connection", I would rather spend my time perfecting my empty hand training with empty hand training. I also mentioned Kali, Escrima and Arnis as systems that I have trained in which have core concepts in paralllel training in empty hand and weapons. But in no way imply that they are superior to Okinawan Karate. Now that you have dispelled the myth of the "chucks" I'd have to say that whomever came up with the idea of using these two pieces of wood connected by rope was quite an innovative fellow. When you consider all the arts and their respective countries it's a pretty significant martial invention. Although I can just hear some TCMA practioners claiming that it probably came from observing the two or three section staff. Okinawans tried to recreate the sectional staff but didn't have the metal capability to mass produce them or perhaps needed a weapon to have a better concealment capability and therefore made their version smaller.
DAT, Weapons training helped your Sensei. I saw him take out a guy with a broom handle one day. After a brief altercation your Sensei John wound up with the broom handle across the back of the guy's ankles. You should have heard that guy scream. John said to him, "If I let you up will you behave?" He said, "Yes yes yes!" John said, "You're a liar!" and pressed down on the back of his ankles and man you should have heard the guy scream. The guy was lucky John did not really hurt him, he sure deserved to get busted up.
That's quite a tale. In context to our weapon discussion, do you think Sensei John's Bo kumite practice enabled him to utilize the broom handle in such a manner that would make Shimabuku proud or did he just open up a can of whoopass?
DAT, I think the broom handle was an after thought. The guy took a swing at John but missed and John threw him to the ground. The guy was face down on the floor with John on top of him. The broom was within arms reach so John got the broom and put it across the back of the ankles, I have no idea where he learned that one.
I asked about it today, he said Remy Presas showed it to him at a seminar. It'll work with an escrima stick if you can get both achilles tendons close enough.
In Seiki Juku Karate.... ..you first learn the basics of "empty hand" fighting and then when you get up to black belt (1.st-2.nd Dan)you learn to fight with weapons. The first weapon you learn, from what I know, is the bo staff, then the sai and next the nunchakus. In Seiki Juku are different katas for these weapons and I witnessed both the sai and bo training before at our dojo. Christian
Hi! sorry if i've seem to have neglected my own thread! Life's taking me down a busy route! I would tend to disagree with weapons helping co-ordination, so much that i would rather say that training empty-handed will increase your co-ordination with weapons. If i had a staff, do i really need to be inch perfect to hit someone in the sides? whereas you'd need some degree of trainig to hit someone in the solar plexus right. I've been doing various kata's in with jo-staff, but this can't be a way of translating karate techniques with weapons? For example in Kushanku, the final moves (when you swivel, arms crossed across the chest and stand up with arms out to the side and bent at the elbow at right angles) is a throw... what is the translation with weapons?
In our style (Sekei Juku), we use the bo (staff) for 1st Dan, and sai (trident short spikey things) for 2nd. I'm not sure if nunchaku come in too. There is a good fit with karate, because the moves are really just extensions of the basic karate moves. I also find them interesting!
My karate school doesn't which is a bit sucky but then its apparently one of the most pure forms of karate around so could couldn't expect less
I think the point is that in order to be inch perfect with a Bo/Jo etc, you need a huge amount of control over your body. I think this is where a lot of the benefit lies. There probably isn't one. I'd suggest that you try kata developed specifically for the weapon you're using. IMHO if you're choosing to study weapons as a means to enhance your empty handed skills, I'd say that the benefit comes from learning to control the weapon. Which kata you use in order to do that is up to you or your teacher. Kata is a tool remember, it's up to you to pick it up and use it
Good point (leading to a word of warning). We use the 2nd Pyung Ahn (or for Karate - Nidan (sp?)) form for use with the sai. Our teacher encourages us to experiment - so I tried it with forms 1, 3, and 4 of that series. I could get a nice translation from empty hand to sai for 1 & 4, but I almost disembowled myself with number 3. Not recommended unless you arrange it with the cleaners first
Our style's very first kata taikoyoko-sonno-ichi is simple movements in zenkutsu dachi either doing gedab barai block or chudan tsuki. This translates exactly into our bo kata ichi, with the gedan barais being replaced by lower blocks with the bo and the chudan tsukis being replaced by circular strikes with the bo. The foot movements are identical. It fits perfectly. The very first time my age 6 (now 8 ) year old son saw the bo kata being performed, he said "that's like taikoyoko-sonno-ichi". Of course, there is not an exact duplication for every single move from empty hand to bo (and vice versa), but there is a fairly good correlation.
I have tried that at home (Heian Nidan), and it is interesting to say the least Tried Bassai Dai with the sai yesterday, and that was fun, even if I couldnt remember it as I was going along and needed to go through it empty hand. Kanku Dai is one of them katas that you need strong arms for with the sai, the kata is that long!
I always ofund it ironic that they taught weapons training in Karate though it means "empty hand" but it's still great. I'm a practice with them myself (bo, Tonfa, Kama Sai and Nunchku) if you want to get into weapons for the sole art purpose, then train with the traditional ones. If you're into the more combative form of weapons, then try using something more improvised like chairs, bottles, hats, wallets, keys. Keep an open mind when in need of a weapon. Personally I like my hands, feet, head, pretty much using myself against them. Anything can be a weapon, even when it seems useless; ever had a magazine or piece of paper in your hand? Roll it up and use the pointed end, works like a charm, oh and, saftey first. :yeleyes:
