Video about the Yang TJQ Two-person exercises?

For anyone interested,

You guys are right, CGS learned the two man set from Lai Hok Soon (his second teacher, before YSC. Previously to that, CGS studied the Wu style for a short time and that probably made an impression *my theory* on him since his postures have more of a forward lean). Lai Hok Soon was also technically a student of Yang Cheng Fu, but by that time it was his son Sau Chung who did all the instruction, while big poppa supervised. Actually, the truth is, a lot of the old-timers who claimed to have studied under Yang Cheng Fu were actually studying under the son YSC.

I still have never seen the Ip form, and I suppose Mr Dings is similiar, but I can't say since I've never seen either. It's a darn shame that those guys never left any video of their forms (at least not publically as far as I know). On the other hand, there is a few tapes floating aorund of YSC doing push hands/form, but the people that have them hold on to them tightly.

 

Lai Hok Soon was a student of Yang Sau Chung (not of Yang Cheng Fu )! His student Yiu Kwong wrote a book "Tui Shou & San Shou in T'ai Chi Ch'uan" where is described a Two-person set similar to the 88-posture San Shou of Yearning Kung Chen and the Large San Sau of Erle Montaigue. So, as I understand this form originate from Yang Shao Hou or Yang Jian Hou.

I am not 100% sure that that form was teached also by Yang Sau Chung. I suppose that the Two person form was teached by JSC because it can be found in many schools of his lineage: Yiu Kwong (Lai Hok Soon), Erle Montaigue (Chu King Hung), Vincent Chu (Chu Gin Soon) and Douglas Lee (Raymond Chung), but maybe I am wrong. Their form is (almost) the same to the form presented in the Yearning Kung Chen's book.

 

Old Yang, you are technically correct, and I said it was YSC who trained him, but even though YCF wasn't teaching anymore, he was still around most of the time and he would give advice to his son on what some people needed to work on and so forth... From the CGS interview with TC magazine...
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TCAH: Master Chu, when did you first begin to study Tai Chi Chuan?

GSC: I began to practice Yang style under Master Lai Hok Soon in 1956 with a very close friend, Mr. Chan Ping Tim. Before this time I had learned the Wu style. I knew Mr. Wu Tai Ki, the 4th generation head of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan. He referred me to his father's disciple (I don't remember his name now). I spent many months with this disciple learning Wu style. One day Mr Chan practiced push hands with the teacher--the teacher could not push Mr. Chan & actually fell down! So we realized the teacher was maybe not that good and left.

TCAH: Why did you choose Tai Chi Chuan as opposed to other styles?

GSC: My health was very poor & everyone I knew at the time told me that Tai Chi Chuan is a very good exercise to improve one's health--as I wrote in Yang Sau Chung's book "Practical Use of Tai Chi Chuan".

TCAH: You mentioned studying under Master Lai Hok Soon--who did he study Tai Chi Chuan with?

GSC: Master Lai was working in the local Canton government at the time when Yang Cheng Fu came to Canton. At the time Master Lai was studying Pa Kua Chang under the famous Fu Gin Sung. With Yang Cheng Fu's arrival, Master Lai began studying Tai Chi Chuan with Master Yang Sau Chung--Yang Cheng Fu was not actually teaching any more at that time, he would sit & instruct his son what to teach. Master Fu Gin Sung knew that Master Lai studied Tai Chi Chuan and would often come to the training hall to observe his practice.

TCAH: After Master Lai's death you went on to study under Master Yang Sau Chung. How did you first meet him?

GSC: Master Lai and Master Yang often communicated between each other. When Master Yang first taught in Hong Kong, at a sports club called Kung Ming in Kowloon, Master Lai was his only assistant instructor. Later, when Master Lai was very sick in hospital, Master Yang came and visited him. That was the first time I met Master Yang. After Master Lai's death, around 15 of us went to learn from Master Yang. Within one year I was the only member of the group left! Training from Master Yang was very hard--he demanded a very high standard from his students. He often said "This is how my father taught me, that is why I teach you this way".

TCAH: What memories do you have of training under Master Yang?

GSC: There are a lot of memories I have of this time--there is not enough room here to recount them all! The main one is of his standard of teaching. He maintained the same quality for all students, nothing was adapted as is often the case today. He would say "If you can do this, then I will teach you. If you cannot do it, best find someone else". The other thing that comes to mind is the relationship between us. When he knew I was coming for a lesson that day, he would always sit and wait for me. He would cancel any appointments, even cancel going out with his wife somewhere.

TCAH: Are there any stories you can relate to us of this time?

GSC: Okay, my very first lesson with Master Yang, I showed him what I had learned from Master Lai. A woman student standing next to Master Yang commented that I was sinking much lower into my postures than my friend Chan Ping Tim. Master Yang nodded, which made me very pleased. I was then asked to show Master Yang my pushing hands exercises: ward off, roll back, press, push (as a senior student with Master Lai I used to practice push hands with him a lot). Master Yang again nodded, so I thought I had done a very nice job. However, Master Yang then said I lacked the most important ingredient, ward-off power (peng jing). I then pushed hands with him, and he showed me how this worked--when he applied this power I was shocked and unable to move my arms! Then I knew how much more I had to learn! Since that day I have spent a lot of time developing Peng jing through dynamic pushing hands. I emphasize this a lot in my teaching--it is the essence in all aspects of Tai Chi Chuan.

TCAH: Did Master Lai and Master Yang's teaching methods differ?

GSC: They had very different styles of teaching. Master Lai taught in the parks. He had many teaching locations. Often he could not cover them all, so I would teach at some of them. Classes were always conducted as a group in early morning, then after classes everyone would go to work. Master Yang taught individually in his own home. Generally, he divided his time to allow each student a lesson at different times throughout the day. No two students had the lesson at the same time. All lessons were taught privately--Master Yang was adamant that his students should not practice in public. He wished many aspects of the art to remain known only to a few. In this way he could be sure of maintaining high standards.

TCAH: How did you feel upon being accepted as Second Disciple of Master Yang?

GSC: Becoming a "closed-door" or "inner circle" disciple carries a lot of responsibility. It is only at this stage that the higher levels of the art are taught. One can be sure that one is receiving the true transmission. It also becomes a responsibility to ensure the continuance of this transmission, maintain the high standards set by my master and to continue the propagation of classical Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. Only in this way can the true art continue to flourish and grow.

TCAH: How have you gone about carrying such a task?

GSC: In the past 25 years, Tai Chi Chuan has come a long way in the United States. I formed the Gin Soon Tai Chi Club in Boston in 1969--not many people knew what Tai Chi Chuan was! Since then I have done a lot of educational work. Now, when you mention the name Tai Chi Chuan, people know what you are talking about. The next step is to improve the quality of Tai Chi Chuan. Although I keep my school small and private, many practitioners seek me out and invite me to conduct seminars at their schools. In this way I can continue to improve the standard of Yang style, both in this country and abroad.

TCAH: Talking of seminars, on your recent course in London, you often stressed the need to sink the chi to the Dan Tien. How is this achieved?

GSC: Many people think that as long as you keep relaxed and think about it, it will happen. This is not so. You have to make it happen physically as well as mentally, over a long period of time. There is no such thing as overnight success. This is why a beginner must seek out a knowledgeable teacher, not simply a famous teacher. When you can sink the chi, the legs become stronger, the body is stronger--you become stronger as a person.

TCAH: Many people are confused by the term chi, or internal energy. What is its meaning for you?

GSC: Chi to me is something inside our body that keeps us alive. It is the energy originating from the blood. In Tai Chi Chuan, the power is often called chi, but more properly it is jing. This is the combination of power from the tendons and ligaments with chi. This power can only be gained through persistent practice. My classmate, Master Ip Tai Tak always says: "Power training is very boring. It is like saving a penny every day". We do not look for the immediate result, we are looking long term.

TCAH: As a leading authority on Yang style Tai Chi Chuan what advice would you give to practitioners at different levels?

GSC: For beginners--be patient. Learn a few movements at a time, do not try to take in too much information at once, it just becomes confusing. Spend time practicing what you have learned already. To build a tall building begins with a strong foundation. What you have already have learned is the most important thing. At an intermediate stage--do not hurry, spend time doing it right. It is very important at this stage to have correct posture. This will lead to correct energy circulation and set the way for future growth. For advanced practitioner--people are into number games these days. They think, the more Tai Chi routines they know, the better it is. A practitioner should fully understand the how and why for each posture. One should spend more time to understand Yang Cheng Fu's Ten Points.

TCAH: Often there are people who practice Tai Chi Chuan for 10, 15 years and achieve no power. What advice would you give to these people?

GSC: Obviously this individual did not have a good teacher. Stop and find someone else. As I said before. you should find a knowledgeable teacher, not just a famous one. Generally a knowledgeable teacher will be someone whom very few people know of and is difficult to find.

TCAH: There are many interpretations of how Yang style should be practiced. How important is it to practice the right way? Does it matter as long as the principles are applied?

GSC: It is very important to practice Tai Chi Chuan the right way--otherwise one is wasting time and money. If you practice according to the principles, you are practicing correctly. However, there are many ways to interpret the principles. Yang style interprets them in one specific way and one way only; so if you do not follow that interpretation, you cannot truly be said to be practicing Yang style.

 

BTW, OldYang, you seem to be really up on your TCC literature. Good on you.

 

Lol, I should remember that interview....

Had forgotten about the YK Chen form drawings - yes, very close to the GSC set

 

tccstudent - I am proud about my book and video collection on (Yang) Taijiquan and Qigong! :love: In the next few days I will update my webpage http://www.geocities.com/oldyangtaijiquan/taijibooks.htm
with the reviews of my new books and videos. I try to not have balast in my collection so I not buy all the books/videos on the subject and I discard the bad material from it (I have/buyed many more books/videos that are listed on my webpage).

RobP - As I understand YJM's 2-person form is not the same of the YKC's drawings but slightly different. YJM on his DVD also present the "old" hand-drawings of the form, that are (if I am not wrong) not the same of YKC's form.
In Taiwan was popular the form of YKC that is not (entirely) the same as that that learned by YJM. Here is a short review about YJM video: http://publishing.ymaa.com/reviews/reviews.php?pid=25

 

Missed this thread as I was away. I was told that YSC didn't do the 2 man set but when GSC showed it to him he said that it was Yang 'style' and corrected it. I also undertsand (if my memory serves me right) that John Ding learned it from GSC on a course in the UK (I think he arranged it).

 

That's true, he did - must have been about 94-95? Wasn't long after the new school opened. AFAIK JD didn't learn any 2 man sets from CKH.

GSC also taught it at Jim Uglow's place a couple of years later I think?

 

I did the Spear and Long Boxing forms with GSC at Jim's - I think GSC did do the 2 man form there because I know that Jim went to Boston a couple of times to have it 'corrected', but I can't remember, I learned it directly from Jim.

 

Wow, that's quite a collection you got going there OY, I have a lot of those books as well. Keep me up to date, if you hear about anything new coming out.

I just finished a new book that just came out by Rick Barrett entitled, "Taijiquan: Through The Western Gate" - not exactly my cup of tea, but he does have some good ideas on internal strength and how it relates to science within TCC concepts.

 

steve Rowe - Yes probably YSC didn't do the 2 man set, but why so many his students has that form in their curriculum?

tccstudent - now I updated my page with recommended books and videos. On the bottom of the page are listed the Best of the Best Resurces! http://www.geocities.com/oldyangtaijiquan/taijibooks.htm

 

Because the Yang Family had their own 2 man set to the YCF form, it's actually outlined in the red book (but you'd never work it out from the written word and photo's) - that set is also variable. I got into the second section but with the other 2 man form plus all the weapon forms, the long boxing, all the pushing hands sets etc etc.. it was enough.

 

I believe Steve is quite right, there is soooo much in the YCF/Sau Chung lineage. Their is enough in their to chew on for your entire life. Damn I'm hungry!!

 

Meaning that the 2-man set was not part of the official Yang Style curriculum? I seem to recall reading this somewhere ages ago, ie. that the 2-man set was created by a student or students of one of the Yangs.

But this seems to be at odds with your statement that "the Yang Family had their own 2 man set to the YCF form".

Was this a separate set to the set taught by Tian Zhao Lin & YK Chen?

Thanks

 

The Yang Family '2 man set' is practical application to the form, is outlined in YSC's red book and is different to the GSC one. Having said that, when shown it, YSC was apparently quite happy with it and then 'corrected' it.

 

In other words, GSC's set had Yangs blessings (and corrections), which is good enough for me. Personally, I think these sets are quite useful if you have the time to study them. As far as a set/form being official, who really cares as long as it was created/tested and deemed to be a valid training exercise by those in the know.

If you go by the current Yang heads (Duo/Jun) you would think that all there is "officially" is the long form, sword, push hands, and knife. They do not acknowledge the two-man set, the fast (chang chuan) set, and the other weapon variations (mainly Sau Chung's family knife form - there are three variations).

 

The Yang style 2-person set was popular among the Yang Shao Hou students.

Yang family didn't have a "2-person set". The YSC one is more a signle posture aplications of the form than a two person form.

 

Erle Montaigue main teacher was Chu King Hung and from him he learned the basics of his TJQ. His style later become a mix of Yang Sau Chung, Chen Pan Ling, old Yang and Chen style elements and Dim Mak. There is also an interesting discussion about the EM:
http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/2975.html?1150683459
[BTW, the name of Chen Pan-Ling's son is Chen Yu Ching that is very similar to the Chang Yiu Chun ]

EM teach Small and Large San Shou that can be found (also) in the Chu King Hung curriculum:
http://www.kungfuclub.it/code_e/yang_tai_chi_chuan.html
As I understand the Small San Shou (Fighting form) was created by Chu King Hung? Is that form teached in any other lineage?

 

tccstudent - What is your opinion about the book of Rick Barrett entitled, "Taijiquan: Through The Western Gate"? Can you make a short review?
I like to be up to date with new and good books and videos about (Yang) Taijiquan and Qigong. Few months ago I found about this book, but I didn't ordered it because I thinked that it is another western useles book. Few days ago I found many good reviews on internet and recommandations, so I ordered it (I will receive it in next few days).
As I understand in the author try to explain the principles of TJQ thorugh the western (scientific) perspective.
Anybody else read that book?

 

Hi OldYang,

I think the book was well written and I can tell the author certainly put a lot of time, effort, and research into his perspectives. With that said, personally speaking, it wasn't my cup of tea. I think I understand what he was trying to say, and basically the "meat" of his book is based on something he calls CTS (connectivity tissue system - or something like that). You are correct whereas he does connect the dots using scientific theory to Tai Chi Chuan theory. While I certainly appreciate any author who tries to pen a book about this subject, I found it to be a bit dry and boring at times because it was more about science than about TCC imho, but I'm sure other opinions may differ.

Now concerning the author, Mr Barrett, I have a friend in our school who attended one of his workshops over there in the UK, and he said he had a lot to offer. I guess he is more well known in the UK than anywhere else, so maybe some folks here could write more about him.