vertical or horizontal fist?

I was thinking about the different positions of the fist when striking. The Horizontal fist is used in Karate, whilst Wing Chun uses the vertical fist when striking. What are the differences between the two and are there and pro's/con's to each approach?

 

i could not comment on which is best, but i have been taught to hold the fist at 45 degrees,

 

In Tang Soo Do - the horizontal fist (so you can see the back of your hand) is used up to Black Belt. From that point onwards, they move to the vertical fist which I am told is more damaging.

I'm not sure if any other arts have different rules for the higher belts.

 

You mean 45 degrees when starting from a vertical position?

 

I usually punch at a 45 degree angle, too. Middle ground, I guess. Not horizontal, no vertical.

 

Not in my Tsd school, we use horizontal or 45 deg fist. I believe the 45 degree fist allows you to transfer more power due to better bone allignment in the fore arm. I think our TSD schools are a bit different from the norm because all the others ive come accross use the horizontal fist.

 

I'm curious how you came to this conclusion. So let me play stickler/devils advocate with it....

Here are some questions regarding your statement:

1) Alignment of what specific bones in the forearm?

2) Aligned to one and other or their alignment to other bones in the arm and shoulder?

3) How does this alignment rate as 'better' or more effective than any other alignment?


4) How much is this affected by the rotation of the hips and torso?

5) Have you got any credible data/studies to back up this up or is this 'better' purely subjective/anecdotal?

6) What part do the muscles and tendons in the arm play in this?

7) How does this better alignment relate to the transfer of power via the scapula and shoulder?

If this sounds a bit much... it's because time and time again there is so much about 'alignment' bandied about... I wonder how much of what gets posted has any real data to back it up.

I would wonder if there is far to much emphasis placed on the hand position and not enough placed on the position and rotation of the hips and torso.

 

Right im no expert but here goes. The bones im reffering to are the ulna and radius in relation to each other. I have heard that the bones are straighter when the arm is at 45 deg, at the horizontal position they are slightly twisted(dont know how true this is feel free to correct me).

Im not sure how this would affect muscle/tendons and the shoulder. I fully agree that hip and torso position/rotation is more important and should be emphasised more. As for credible(scientific) sources to back up my claims, nah just articles on various Karate sites and what my instuctors have told me. For what its worth i find this fist position better than the horizontal, try it on a pad and see what you think.

 

From my experiance the horizontal fist was used.

 

Before anyone else can do it:

 

And another one that shows it slightly better:

 

http://ahfaa.org/boxingstance.htm

Intresting article on the vertical punch in olden days boxing, again it talks about the proper skeletal alignment of the vertical fist but that just doesn't seem to be tru when you look at the skeleton, or is that just me?

 

Yep, where I've been beginners tend to be taught the "Horizontal fist" as you called it almost exclusively but then are gradually introduced to other ways of punching and strikes. I guess the reason for this is that most people when the start can't punch for toffee - so keep it simple.

 

A lot of the reasoning behing the fist being vertical in Wing Chun is because the the advantageous elbow postioning.

 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20504&page=1&pp=15

This is a thread on olden days bareknuckle boxing here on MAP.

Seems to sugest that boxers used a vertical fist but tried to hit with the two large knuckles of the hand so a sort of halfway house I guess.

 

what's the significance of the elbow positioning?

 

It keeps the elbows nearer to being on the centreline.

 

I like this approach.
Lead hand vertical, rear hand horizontal.
Obviously lead hand bottom three, rear hand top two.
I think Bruce Lee used the same approach.