UK Cop jailed for murder

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Simon, Oct 3, 2021.

  1. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    "Ero - The whole thread is condemning men displaying a certain behavior, that is being summarized as being a core issue for rape and murder. It is being singled out as a male only problem. I'm saying that both men and women display this crude behavior, that on the male end when expressed it tends to result in life altering, immediate, physical violence which causes us to focus on solutions that come from a spot of hate, fear, and resentment which often have heavy handed actions that can create more problems. If some of these people are your family and friends as some have mentioned, you might want to reconsider your understanding of the situation to make sure you're dang right in condemning them before you burn those bridges. "On the female end" means maybe also including women's sexual behavior in conjunction with males that we think are causing the issues here, then maybe the solution to curbing the behavior in men is figuring out how to curb the behavior in women first. I'm not saying we change our vitriol and anger towards rapists and murders that are men. I'm saying we also add that women are pretty horrendous too, but are different biologically and have to approach things differently. I guess I'm trying to say that understanding women more may help us understand men better."

    If I wrote it like this is it better?

    "Some of this thread's commentary focuses only on male objectification of the female body in such a way that one could surmise that they believe it's a major core issue around rape and murder. This very premise misses the well documented psychological understanding that rape and murder are more often about power and control, and less about sex and reproduction. Therefore one can conclude that sexual objectification may not be a major faucet of serious social issues like rape and murder affecting the female population, but rather the social stigmas and expectations society holds around sex itself and how it correlates to status. However it certainly still could contribute to sexual harassment. Shaming may work on the surface, but the need to claim control and power through sex will not likely be resolved.

    Sexual harassment centered around sexual objectification is often seen as a male only issue, however my personal experience has been a bit different ::que prior post to @David Harrison :: and this is a lot more common than what is pushed in the public sphere. Terry Cruise and Brendan Fraser are two celebrity figures in recent years to share similar experiences, albeit from male attention I believe (I've gotten this too quite a bit, feel the same way). It has been a common theme throughout my life. It may behoove of us to see how the behavior in question is manifesting across both sexes, as well as in the different genders with strong correlations to the sexes, in order to figure out the best way to curve the undesired behavior. The solution to curbing the undesired behavior in cis males may be found in solutions to curbing the behavior in other populations that are not cis male.

    Due to the common correlation with rape and murder that sexual objectification has within this thread, I think that people may be more willing to hit flies with sledgehammers, not realizing they're breaking the table underneath, so now we don't have a table to eat at. All they needed was a fly swatter. Negative corrective actions are permanent through trauma, we should definitely be 100% sure when and how to apply it. "
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    No, I am pointing out what I dislike. You asked us to clarify things by quoting you specifically, so I did.

    It is not based on emotional hurts from the past. I find you saying we need to fix women for men's attitudes towards objectifying them to be a pretty awful indefensible position to take. But that is a common thing said to women to shut them up now, isn't it?

    If men speak up they are assertive. If women do the same they are being too emotional? Maybe you don't realize it and I don't think you intend it to be that way. But you should know it is a common thing said to women. As for the emoji, it isn't often I get to use the anger emoji. It's just an emoji.

    I do wonder if society is doomed when it has to be explained why I find it ridiculous and infuriating to explain why women shouldn't have to curb their behavior first on this subject. I feel like if it isn't obvious, no amount of explaining will get through.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  3. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I did not see this in the last post, apologies for not responding. As an aside though, I missed it due to the sporadic adverts that randomly change the size of my screen when I scroll 0__0

    This is where some kinds of people will bring up "but men get abused and raped too in jail and other situations and a lot of it goes unreported" and my response is "they do man, BY OTHER MEN." Sexual Assault and Sexual Harassment are two different things legally, my understanding is harassment can occur without a need to display power and control, where assault does (up to rape). Men are often told we need to have power and control, and in a lot of different areas of life. Sex is one of them.

    Is rape, and rape leading to murder, an expression of societies' message to males about what they need to show power and control (that they need it at all?), or is it playful objectification of sexual desires expressed in a crude/crass way that displayed to an immature audience could give the wrong impression about communicating sexual desires in various settings. The latter could very well lead to the former, but I don't think it does in many other situations.

    I don't have any answers but I think we can be asking some better questions that offer more precise solutions.
  4. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I felt my response was dismissive and lacked effort on my part. I ended up responding and adjusting my language a bit to what you brought up. I went to delete it but that function was gone so I "reported" it with an explanation.

    I'm not trying to have a conversation about men and women as a man, or with you as a woman. I'm trying to have this conversation from the perspective of . . . . I don't know, an alien looking at humans? I do not read myself the way you are reading me. I feel like I'm being yelled at by a woman, who is yelling at a man she is angry at. Real talk @aaradia , we are on the same team. From a straight male, to a lesbian woman, do your thing and I'm going to do everything I can to understand your position if you'll extend the same to me.

    The "boss/bossy" narrative doesn't sit well with me. People who demand things aggressively are jerks to be polite about it. I get it though, it just hasn't been as relevant for me. I sway towards wanting women leaders as I've found women in leadership positions in my life to be more reasonable and less prone to emotional outbursts/reactions on average.

    The things you're bringing up do not feel as significant in the latter half of my life as they were in the former. I don't like how "toxic masculinity" is pushed by encompassing all of masculinity, but at the same time I haven't had a male psychiatrist or psychologist I could tolerate because of their constant need to prove their own worth and share things about themselves in a way that seems like they're trying to make themselves worth more than me. So I unno', it's definitely valid in some context.

    Also, if you figure out how to curb a woman's behavior in a lab/study setting (which is how I'm thinking about all of this), where the same behavior in men is expressed in a violent, harmful way, then you can take that behavior modification from the lab, and then apply it to the male population to take care of the immediate and pressing crisis involving rape and murder. In no way do I mean "ya'll women need to fix yourselves first." The pressing issue is violence. What's the quickest way to find a solution?
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Okay, let's start with getting the awkward stuff out of the way first, because I really do want to have a good faith debate.

    First, I don't know if it was a joke or whatever, but I don't think you're a Jordan Peterson acolyte, a Republican, a Proud Boy, or any other right wing type. In kind, I don't identify with the UK Labour Party, the Democrats, or any other political affiliation. I would wager that we would agree on a lot, should we discuss politics outside of political parties.

    Secondly, I'll quote this:

    In regards to this:

    Now, I apologise for not having the time at present to be as careful with my language as I would like, but if you can't take me conceding a point in good faith without picking apart the way in which I said it, then it might be me waiting a decade to come back to this thread. Me being happy to concede a point in respect of your personal experience is not me being happy about the subject matter of that point.

    With that out of the way, let's get to the meat:

    I absolutely agree that we should act as individuals. I also agree that it would be great if we didn't have governments telling us what to do. But, I'm talking about working with what we've got. That doesn't exclude individual action, but it will include the tiny sliver of power over our corporate overlords we have, in the form of elected officials.

    Where we come to an impasse is our diametrically opposes views on human behaviour and evolution. History gives us no straight line from "base" behaviour to refined beings. There is no progress over the long term. The evidence we have suggests that, if anything, the opposite is true. As far as we can tell from biology, you could drop a newborn from 50,000 years ago into the modern world and never tell the difference. A neolithic hunter-gatherer would be just as likely to be horrified at the holocaust or the Transatlantic slave trade as anyone else outside of those cultures that got so twisted they could justify it to themselves. I promise I'll gather some sources at some point, but I am piecing these replies together in 20 second chunks, trying to hold a train of thought while looking after two small children, so please forgive me for my lack of citations.

    As for objectification leading to rape, that might not be the point. Even if the two are completely uncorrelated, the effect it does have is to reduce condemnation of perpetrators and empathy with victims. There are some small studies on this that I'll find for you. The ultimate expression of objectification is the Abrahamic concept of wives as properly of husbands. What we would consider a husband raping his wife wasn't even a thing until recently, as it was his right to do with his property as he wished. It is this idea of women being there for the pleasure of men, over them being people in their own right, that still needs weeding out of the human psyche. That doesn't mean that we can't talk about finding people attractive, by the way.

    Lastly, concerning harassment in general, try opening a twitter account under a female name, or play online games doing the same. The levels of sexual harassment and abuse experienced between men and women in these spaces are not equivalent at all.
    aaradia likes this.
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    It was a joke. But also a pre-emptive attempt at not being associated. I haven't been watching as much Youtube lately so they recommendations have shifted from pottery and kilns to past topics of interest.

    I mean, that's my interpretation of how people are arguing against my comments sometimes.

    A bit of an aside but related:

    I'm having a hard time feeling like I'm speaking the same language. When I mention my mental health and comment on it I'm not doing it to have people walk around on eggshells around me. I'm also mentioning certain things to try and help communication with me, because I know I'm difficult and can really hunker down on things. Part of me posting about this stuff is me trying to learn how to communicate experiences to people who are not as familiar with it. I'm certainly not going to win everyone over. That's not the goal for me.

    I'm hard headed and a major jerk and I don't think those things are changing. I'm aware of it. I don't want to read like I'm not able to take care of myself and need to be handled with care. Nobody really has a great way of communicating mental health and having discussions that have major triggering topics causing people to have strong reactions.

    You still think regular people have a tiny sliver of power? That's cute. #ULTRAcYNICAL. (Maybe if you can make a lot of money?)

    I think we've been trying to consolidate problems and slap them with solutions that are much too broad. Hence my opposition to shaming people based on sexual objectification alone. Insecurity, and what we are projecting as "success" I think is more of a core issue that cascades into the mental health issues that result in rape and murder.

    I have mentioned I think there are many central "truths" you can live your life successfully by. My wife blew my mind when we were dating at one point. We were talking about getting random farm animals like 1 goat and 3 ducks but we have to have 2 donkeys and I have no clue why we're doing so few and so random. I ask her why the odd numbers because animals have to have a reason to exist. She gets mad at me. Legitimately mad at me for expressing the idea that things need a "reason" to be alive. I was something like 30, and ain't nobody ever really expressed that to me.

    Enter an atheist teaching me about spirituality. Just the absolute insanity that something has made it to become a functioning organism in such a hostile physical world needs to be respected. Just existing is enough, because you gotta' do a whole lot of stuff just to keep existing without anything extra and that keeps the ball of life rolling for the most part. I think that's another thread though. I'm not in disagreement with you. I'm trying to live my life in a way to see that view point and help people like me get there too if they can find comfort in it. We're all just trying to do our best, and sometimes we gotta' do different things in our head to make that happen.

    I played WoW as a female character. I would let guys with a toxic attitude towards women go on about me and even play into it a little bit (ok sometimes I took it really far where some of them may have some psychological issues after the fact if they were homophobic as well), and then I would let them know I was a guy and the reactions would be great, and hopefully enough of a shock for them to just not chance it again.

    I see your point about the Abrahamic religious stuff. It is worth noting.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, they are continually being clawed back, but industrial action, mass protest, boycotts and elections can still be ways to enact incremental change for the better. When public opinion theatens the veneer of society, those with power make concessions. It might not fix the underlying causes, but it does make life better for people.
    Yeah, I would agree to a large extent. However, I think history shows us that small, incremental changes to attitudes in society have knock-on effects to behaviour generally. Pulling this out at the root is a gargantuan task that not many have the will to do, especially those with a stake in the status quo, so why not fight the symptoms one at a time until we're in a position to affect real, systemic change? I mean, if it makes life less unpleasant for people, what's the objection?
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Pending further MOD discussion I am going to take it upon myself to close this thread.

    There is some really sensible discussion going on, but also a lot of ill feeling and perhaps misunderstanding.

    In order to protect those involved and stop adult discussion falling into an argument the MOD Team will have a chat (no biscuits since Frodo left :() and let you know the outcome.
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod Note: Just want to add that I want you all to know I am recusing myself from a vote in this. As I am too deeply involved and I want you all to feel the process is fair.
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Okay gang, as promised I said we'd let you know how things went.

    aaradia has run off with the new biscuit tin, so we're not talking to her. o_O

    Mitch is busy, as it's drag queen night at the local YMCA and he's through to the finals. :eek:

    bassai has Covid, so has said none of you are important right now and dunc is a Ninja, so he may be about, we just can't see him. :D

    Anyway, thread open.

    Behave yourself otherwise Mitch will be posting pictures.
    Mitch likes this.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

  12. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's a sad statistic, but if nothing else comes from the Sarah Everard case it's that things in the police force aren't, or at least for the moment, being swept under the carpet.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well, it took Freedom of Information requests to find that out, and there is a lot of information not included in it, so it's not like police forces are being forthcoming and transparent about the issue.
    Simon likes this.
  14. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    unfortunately, that seems to depend on who your mum is
    Epstein: Met to take no action after Prince Andrew review Epstein: Met to take no action after Prince Andrew review
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  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Seriously folks, I think we're having a good discussion over difficult issues here, and Ero's main point has been that "challenging," friends/colleagues over their views may be handled in any number of ways. Sometimes an empathetic discussion may be of greater benefit than a public condemnation; both "challenge," a viewpoint, but one may lead to better results than another.

    Now, where's my wig?
  16. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I think if I were to try to express this, I would say . . . ::deep breath::

    Humans are more complex in our programming than animals, but it holds true that actions taken to correct behavior that use methods requiring pain, discomfort, or psychological distress to achieve the correction can be more harmful than good.

    For example, if you own a dog and want to teach him to sit, and you teach him by yelling at him, he'll learn to sit but he'll also learn to avoid you and be scared of you. The intensity of which these additional undesired behaviors will be expressed are dependent on the dog as an individual which can also be narrowed down by its breed/temperament. If you teach a dog to sit with treats, the dog will be EXCITED to sit for you for the rest of its life because it has associated sitting with treats, rather than "if they yell at me I should do something. I'll try laying down. Didn't work, human is still yelling. I don't know what to do. I'll walk away but I'm scared because of the yelling. I'll stop walking away and sit. They are nice now. Ok I'm safe."

    When I first got Ero, my doggo, he was a puppy. I was playing with him one day and he bit me in the face. I smacked him pretty good. He yelped and reeled away from me. I couldn't control me hitting him. He bit me in the face good with those little needle puppy teeth and it was an auto reaction. I immediately felt terrible about hitting him and enraged from the burning pain on my face. From that moment on has never bitten anything with force, even when playing. It was a night/day change after that event, and for a year or so if he accidentally nipped me grabbing a treat he would flinch for a moment.

    Yelling at dogs to shift behaviors is negative reinforcement training. You are taking away a negative stimulus (yelling) when the correct behavior is achieved (sitting). Dogs, being easily distracted mentally and the smartest of the breeds only reaching the intelligence of maybe a three year old, can have their survival mechanisms triggered easily by the negative stimulus creating a state of panic and confusion. That's why negative stimulus generally isn't the best way to train a dog. The equivalent of this is the consensus at the start of the thread that "calling people out" and "shaming" are the only tools available. Negative stimulus triggers survival mechanisms in humans as well. It may LOOK like the problem is being fixed on the surface, but a loooooot of other things can be happening. Shaming has never worked for me unless it was followed by an "arm on the shoulder" explanation for why I was being shamed (not righteous indignation) often followed with personal examples in the person's life to help meet me eye to eye. Unless it was specifically that situation, I just didn't like the person and thought they were a jerk and stayed away. Gone were all opportunities to reach me from their point of view.

    Food is life for most dogs. Using it to encourage behavior is by far the fastest way to get results. It is positive reinforcement training. You don't even need to address the dog's misunderstandings (laying down when you say sit, barking when you say roll over, etc.) when using positive reinforcement training. You just don't give them the treat until they do the correct action. For us humans, not interacting with the behavioral traits we don't want often causes people to shift their perspective. There are different levels to this. In the most extreme everyone ignores you until you do what they want, and then they give you lavish praise and acceptance. On the reverse, some people get praised for every thing they do, so no behavior is modified at all.

    In some situations people will try to force a reaction, or will project a forceful approach from the start in an attempt to impose their will on others. That becomes an issue of oppressive behavior trying to exert dominance. Since we're all beta males that figured out how to link up together to take down the alpha male for a more peaceful society, we generally give out punishment for that sort of oppressive behavior. For poor Ero, biting me in the face resulted in a significant enough punishment that he doesn't commit to that behavior. Great for a relationship with people and other dogs that he gets along with. Not great if he needs to defend himself in a fight with another dog or animal, because he wont even bite hard in play with our other doggos while he gets little nicks on his ears all the time. He's fast as hell though so he has a chance of getting away : P.

    There are benefits and shortcomings to all the different kinds of behavior modification. Every one of them can be used to manipulate people for good, or for bad. Humans can literally reprogram themselves, but we're in a weird situation where we develop our own software based on input from our environment, which includes all of us figuring out the best way to live both on our own and with each other. It's an unfortunate truth that most perpetuators of violence were first victims themselves in some form. That does not excuse the need for accountability and responsibility. Sometimes a dog learns a person's size doesn't matter, that they can kill a person and don't have to fear the person that was abusing them anymore. In most cases it's not worth it to try to remove that behavior when the dog is removed from the abusive situation or removed for the abuser's safety. It's always going to be imprinted on the dog's nervous system, and it can always be triggered. It is a line that can't be crossed back over, and in some cases that means the dog needs to die. Sometimes a dog has a genetic deficiency or an actual degenerative disease that causes it to become violent. It is unfortunate that these animals also must be removed for the benefit of other life, sometimes through death. Some people have created environments for these kinds of dogs to live in peace, especially if the circumstances were because of us humans. The individuals caring for these dogs are taking responsibility for all of us, really. All of these scenarios echo situations we deal with in society as humans living with each other. None of them are easy to solve.

    Keeping along with the "reprogramming ourselves" analogy, I believe it's also important to state that you can't take a computer built and programmed for office work and expect it to play the latest in PC games without doing all the necessary work to bring it up to speed. I believe people have limitless potential and limitless ways of reprogramming ourselves for the better of all life, human and otherwise. We're still figuring it out. We really know just enough to be aware we don't know a dang thing to be honest. Not everyone has had the same software downloads, not everyone is going to be able to change at the same rate as everyone else, and not everyone can take the same kind of files to be upgraded. My intent is to highlight all this so maybe we can find more solutions to address the problem of rape and murder and inappropriate sexual objectification behaviors. These behaviors manifest more often in men for sure. Across the board shaming I can see just being an opportunity to abuse others and receive praise for it for some people.

    If I hurt anyone in this thread I apologize. My @ing people looked really aggressive the next day when I read everything again but I promise I just hadn't slept and was being lazy not typing your names. I was trying to make a joke of the Jordan Peterson thing while also making a comment that just because something might be associated with the guy, doesn't mean it comes from certain people (something that can distract in discussions whether by personal opinion or ideological association with the individuals tagged : P). That's how I try to de-escalate tension, not create more and I'm pretty sure I did the opposite xD. My strong reaction was because of how much people had hurt me in the past due to shaming. I also know the value of having faith in people and that they will change, and showing them love and acceptance but being firm in not accepting their behavior while normalizing certain things with yours. I've watched a lot of people change in my life, and I like to think I had a small part in it because a lot of people have had a small part in changing me.
    Mitch likes this.
  17. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter


    I think if I were to try to express this better, I would say . . .

    I really miss the edit button. The use of an edit button should be a privately awarded privilege for those who can be trusted.

    Plot Twist: IT ALREADY IS

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  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Here are a couple of links for you to peruse at your leisure:

    PDF of a small study on sexual objectification and rape victim blaming (lots of citations to previous research, but large scale studies are lacking):

    A fairly comprehensive article on sexual assault by a clinical psychologist: When Men Attack: Why (and Which) Men Sexually Assault Women

    It has points in it that agree with both your good self and me.

    The article includes a term that I wasn't aware of before: social scripts. It is a phenomenon I was very aware of, but it's nice to be able to put an accepted term to it. I've long thought that practicing the skill of seeing outside of, and being able to circumvent, social scripts is vital to self-defence during the interview stage. This isn't really applicable to the OP, as the social script for being arrested involves too much authority to expect law abiding people to resist, but as most sexual assault is perpetrated by friends and acquaintances, it is relevant to the general topic. Fixing this "on the female end" is a limited mitigation measure, fixing it on the male end is required in order to balance the scales of equal enjoyment of physical safety in society for men and women somewhat.

    Objectification isn't just sexual, isn't just directed toward women, and sexual objectification is also directed toward women by women, so I agree that this isn't purely a male problem. It does impact women in more critical, physical ways and in greater numbers though. If we apply the hierarchy of needs, it takes priority over other forms of objectification.

    Psychopathic serial rapists and murderers are a different problem in terms of prevention, in my opinion. The social scripts that give sexual expectations to lead men without psychological pathology to sexually assault women need heavy editing. Even if we pretend that sexual objectification of women doesn't influence incidences of sexual assault (it does), the victim blaming it promotes affects everyone from police to prosecutors, judge to jury, friends to community. This is a huge problem that makes it easier for rapists to get away with it and victims not get the care and justice required. Not to mention the constant background noise of sexually violent language directed at women on social media, negative bias regarding women's competency, and a whole host of other effects.

    Social scripts, taboos and shame do not have to negatively impact people. I don't feel scolded and ostracized by society for going to the toilets in a mall rather than taking a dump in the middle of the food court. Most of these social scripts just happen without anyone giving them a moment's thought. I think hitting children might be a good example; it went from being commonplace and not just acceptable but encouraged, to largely unacceptable and discouraged in a short space of time. It is also something people thought of as "natural" and tied to biology.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Although the kind of people that think there's nothing to fix in terms of how women are treated ("status quo warriors" rather than "social justice warriors"), or think men have it just as bad, are also the same people that think we should go back to battering kids to teach them respect and good behaviour and all the badly behaved people today just didn't get hit enough as kids.
    Same demographic.
  20. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    This is the core of the problem to me , I and probably all the men I’ve ever worked with , can look at the original meme and see the humour , however , I’ve never felt it encouraged me to act on the suggestion , which is probably why many men see nothing wrong with it.
    I do feel the way forward is to educate our children better (I’m hoping I have) , but , the elephant in the room here I feel is online porn , it absolutely does encourage derogatory behaviour towards women there really is no disguising it and although I know the original post was about Facebook , it’s really no harder to find these sites , as I discovered a couple of years ago meaning I had to quite a big “dad chat” with my then 14 year old son.
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