UFC fighters Vs Greats from the past.

Looking at various posts over the last few days it amazes me that people talking about what would have happend if boxing greats such as Mike Tyson had fought in the UFC always seem to under rate the boxer/ Non Trad martial arts fighter, commenting on how although exeptionally talented would not be able to compete with the take downs of the modern martial arts fighter. How do they Know that this would be the case. Just because a boxer fights under one set of rules does not mean that he can not fight in other circumstances. For examples of men who not only boxed but also competed in the then illigal prize fighting world then look no further than people like Lenny Mclean, Bartley (King Of The Gypsies Gorman) and in my book prehaps the hardest hitting boxer of all time Jack Dempsey. I personally think that any of these guys would have been more than a match for any of the UFC fighters past or present, its just a pity that the UFC was not around in their life times other wise I am sure that these guys would be more greatly appriciated for the true hard core fighters that they were.

 

I don't think anyone underestimates boxers. I've never heard anyone on here with a bad word to say about the art (apart from maybe that they neglect their legs). I would guess the only shortcoming in a boxer would be the same as in all the striking practitioners who've been suprised when a grappler gets in close range.

 

First off, it must be said that the giant squid would win. Easily.

Now that it's out of the way, bareknuckle boxers of the past wouldn't have been as surprised by grappling as you might think. This thread (which is, in my opinion, the very best thread I've read on MAP), can explain a bit why.

 

Sperm whale beats giant squid.

 

i don't underestimate boxers, but it sounds to me like you're underestimating wrestlers. groundfighting is not something you can improvise against someone who knows what he's doing...you just get slaughtered.

 

Nice thread link, Guizzy!

 

Interesting but I wonder if much of what we'd see would be like the match up between Genki Sudo (needs no intro being the super-freak-a-zoid grappler that he is) and Ramon Dekkers - one of the hardest hitting Dutchman to ever walk the planet - one of the fighter responsible for opening up the Thai rings to western MT fighters.

Dekkers fought the likes of Diesal Noi... an absolute killer. And yet in his match up with Genki Sudo - definately metro-sexual by comparison to Diesal Noi... Dekkers tapped out in a very, very, very short amount of time.

Would any of the other greats have fared any better?

 

The point I was making that whilst the guys I mentioned were famed mainly for their boxing abillity that they were also well versed in grappling.

 

Thanks for the link. This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

errr... was Jack Dempsey 'well versed' in grappling?
While there would be some bareknuckle boxers that were skilled in grappling of sorts there would also be many who would still get owned.

Many professional boxers would get severly owned. It does not really take that much to take someone down. This has been shown time and time again.

 

If you look at the history books I think you will find that Jack Dempsey fought in many prize fights before becoming the boxing heavy weight champion of the world. These old time prize fights were bare knuckle fights that included head butting, wrestling and for all you Mike Tyson fans out there it wasn't unheard of to bite your opponent when wrestled to the floor.

 

How do you figure his ground skills would stand up to the submission technicians of today given the highly specialized training routines that there are for sub fighters?

I still think that no matter what the case... it would be a mixed bag... many boxers would get taken down and submitted. Prize fighters? They would have more of an edge perhaps... but it's hard to say... there is almost no existing footage of these fights... so much of what we go on is oral history that's been handed down... not always the most reliable history to go on.

Any clips of these prize fights of yester year?

 

The same way modern fighters in the UFC that are mainly stand up fighters ie Chuck Liddel) By training to avoiding the take downs and then knock their opponent out. These guys would know how their opponent fought and just like today would train to specifically target the area's that their opponents were known for. I have seen many submition fighters frustrated in the UFC by stronger opponents which when taken down just hang on in the gaurd position until the ref stands them back up.

 

Interesting. I still don't think you'd see a big swing either way though. It's go on pretty much the same as it has. Any of the big MMA comps have fighters that are every bit as nasty and tough as they were back in the day... additionally many have the advantage of better resources to train with and better knowledge of physiology and the like... so it may just come out an even heat.

Fun to bat around theoretically though.

I take it that's a 'no' on the clips of the old skool prize fights?

 

I agree with what you say about the MMA fighters of today.These are the modern day prize fighters and like with any sport , Modern training techniques make the sport evolve ever further. Men who fight in the fairgrounds of old or the modern stadiums of today are a breed apart and are to be both admired and respected. As for the footage of old age prize fighting unfortunatley I don't have any but if any one out there does have any footage I would be very interested to see it.

 

LOL you want footage?

You will love this, Lenny V the mad gypsy Bradshaw.....great start from Bradshaw and some stomping on the floor from McLean , but its ok, they are wearing gloves

DONT HEAD BUTT THE GUV!!!



Lenny is not impressed, LOL, but its bare fist.

 

LOL this one is great

I'm not seeing much grappling and I feel that tfight have been like this for a long time.....what you want from bare fist is knock outs not grappling....blood and closed eyes.

I feel that the old style guys would get eaten in MMA unless they trained for the ground game.

Chuck Liddel is such a winner, not just because of his great stand up game, there are lots as good at stand up as him in pro boxing and Muay Thai, but because he can stay standing against the odds, which other equaly tallented stand up fighters cant match.

Lenny was an animal and I wouldnt want to fight him (but would have loved to see him fight, or even have had the chance to meet him) but he would get taken down.

Example....Kimbo Slice=Great bare fist guy....gets beat by fat MMA guy (with much MMA type things being disalowed)....then MMA guy (Gannon) gets beat in UFC55 (AIRC)

 

Tank Abbot is a good example of a tough mean brawler. The point I was making was that the old style fighters I mentioned were some of the hardest hitters in the game. I'm not syaing that they would never get Taken down or lose to the mordern MMA fighter what I am saying is with that type of punching power you would definatley have to be on top of your game to beat these guys. I still think that even in todays MMA tournements good strikers always have an advantage over the submition guys. Whilst I do admit that the best MMA fighters are great all rounders the likes of Lidell, Andre orlovski, Tim silvia are better known for their punching power although all can survive well on the floor. It would be interesting however to put a hard hitting welter weight against Matt Hughes as he seems pretty much untouchable at the moment.

 

i think it depends a lot on the fighter. i think a boxer could beat a mma fighter and vice versa. its not like there confined to just punching, it could just turn into a brawl.

 

Very true. And I think that a top-class Thai boxer would take out a top-class boxer (who tend to not know how to defend leg kicks or control a clinch). Just look at the San Shou vs. Boxing travesty - the boxers were eaten alive by leg kicks, to the point where the San Shou team was asked not to use that strategy anymore.

Another good example - the famous Gene Lebell fight against the greased-up boxer with brass knuckles. Despite being at a huge disadvantage, he still secured a chokehold.

Boxing is a great PART of MMA training, but straight-up boxing skills fall short when matched up against a more versatile fighter, who has kicking/takedowns/finishing holds etc at his disposal.