Turnkey Tyranny: Edward Snowden, PRISM, America Spies On World, Lavabit Self-shutdown

I know many of us here at MAP must have very strong opinions about the US PRISM scandal, so I'm creating a thread where we can share those opinions. Most of you overseas will probably be sadly more informed about this issue than many of my fellow Americans are, unfortunately. From these links I'm posting it might appear to be well-covered by American news media, but I assure you, it is not. Occasionally, I hear a brief soundbite about it on TV, particularly if the President has vaguely addressed the subject during a press conference, and this news is repeatedly overshadowed by the newest celebrity scandal or spotlight local crime/trial. Since the scandal broke, it has made the front page of my local paper maybe two or three times only. Therefore, one of my primary motivations for creating this thread is to keep the Americans among MAP more informed about the topic. If anyone is interested, I follow author Barry Eisler on Facebook and John Stewart on Comedy Central for my information on this issue. Yup: as an American I have to reply on a fiction author and a satire comedy show to get fast, accurate reporting on one of the biggest US government scandals in the history of my country.

Whose opinions I am most interested in hearing from are those Americans who endorse such a broad domestic spying program. What do you believe the criteria for a whistle blower is and how do you feel Edward Snowden has failed to meet that criteria? What evidence do you have that we are safer today because of those domestic spying programs, and do you believe there have been any abuses to those programs already committed? I suspect the 50% of America who endorses these programs fundamentally just want to trust in the goodness of human nature and in the integrity of their government. In my heart, I can understand that. Intellectually, I cannot reach the same conclusion.

I understand that the vocal majority of MAP isn't very politically homogeneous, as most of us tend to be fairly liberal, and as such this thread might be one-sided and brief. However, if any Americans in favor of domestic spying do have the courage to publicly discuss the subject, I ask that you please not troll them and discourage others from openly discussing their opinions. I hope we can be mature enough to politely inform each other in a civilized fashion and potentially even change a few minds.

US Public Opinion Poll on Snowden/PRISM, June 17, 2013:

Spoiler

http://www.people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/6-17-13 NSA release.pdf

[Youtube will not embed properly for me. Tried several things. If a mod would help me embed these videos, I will love you even more than I already do. Thank you.]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui3KpztUzVg"]EXCLUSIVE: Owner of Snowden's Email Service on Why He Closed Lavabit Rather Than Comply With Gov't - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuKgt52HMbQ"]Lavabit CEO: 'If You Knew What I Know About Email, You Might Not Use It' - YouTube[/ame]

I didn't even really know who Cenk Uyguy was until I heard this quote, but based on his rare and accurate journalistic insight into what I believe has been a matter of domestic cross-spying among NATO countries for many years, he now has my attention and respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kahuJyilZFw

Don't worry though Earth, President Obama ordered an internal NSA review to ensure legal accountability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qjN3x-xrpk

The president has recently backtracked and now claims James R. Clapper will not in fact lead the NSA review. And it only took the entire world making fun of him for him to realize it wasn't a great idea. I know I feel much better about the direction my country is headed.

(I welcome and appreciate any help updating this thread with new information. Thank you.)

 

I think we need robust inteliggence services. They need freedom to operate were the task takes them. Did anyone ever really think what they did online was private?

Im of the view if you have not done anything wrong and aren't planning on making some HME any time soon, then you really don't have anything to worry about. But then what happens if the establishment starts using these means to spy on those who speak against it? Thats when lines start getting crossed.


For spying on nationals there needs to be a very strict process and it should be getting authorisation at the highest level. Not just as and when the government of the day feels like it.

My .02

Raz

 

HME? Homemade explosives? We call those IEDs in the US.

Do you realize that US intelligence services routinely listen to US citizen phone conversations from people who aren't security threats? And that the British government does the exact same thing to British citizens?

During those 2008 NSA analyst leaks in that video, it was disclosed that the US government was routinely spying on US citizens who are not remotely security threats, and that analysts would gather around and share a listen and laugh at sultry phone and video conversations, particularly spousal phone or video sex. These were not people suspected of any crimes or with criminal histories. In several cases they were US soldiers speaking to family back home.

Unfortunately, spying on members of Congress has already happened.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_suyRP1jBNQ"]The Echelon: US global spy system - YouTube[/ame]

Yeah, but that has not been happening for a very long time now. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and the US are all part of project ECHELON and routinely share domestic spying information with each other that might otherwise be illegal in the host country over forms of communication like radio transmissions, satellite signals, phone calls, and Internet traffic.

So I guess my question to you, and to anyone else who wants to chime in on this, is: would you mind knowing that intelligence analysts were listening to your phone sex calls with your spouse traveling overseas and carousing like frat boys over it if it meant there was a slightly increased chance to catch terrorists before they acted?

 

All the powers are using this terror threat to keep tabs on everyone. I'm sure it'll get used politically than for its actual purpose but its going to happen anyway so worrying about it isn't going to help. Technology is going to get better and we're just going to accept it.
If only someone could of warned us 65 years ago we could of been more diligent

 

If you're not doing anything wrong, what does it matter if the government has the power to monitor your cellphone/hover drones over your house/waterboard you? Only bad guys would be against this. You're not a bad guy are you John Gambit?

 

I'm afraid you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth spying on me

 

Well isn't that the fear? I'm fairly certain I saw something in a blog somewhere that the US administration is already doing just that. But there are wider concerns.

The NSA often uses what are termed "backdoors" in software to gain access to the on-line services they are spying on. If the NSA can use these backdoors to access your e-mail or bank transactions or even your PC. Then so can criminals.

What the NSA have been doing and are increasingly seeking to do is act without appropriate oversight. Act without barriers or restraint. If the "war on terrorism" means sacrificing our civil liberties and living in a police state where our every communication is monitored then frankly we've already lost the fight.

When Lavabit shut down. It's owner was threatened with legal action from the authorities. Because apparently that counted as a breach of the court order compelling Lavabit to give what is thought to be broad unfettered access to all Lavabit accounts. Unfortunately these court orders are secrete and cannot be disclosed to the public. So we'll likely never know for sure.

If the government and authorities are operating in secrete how then can they be accountable to the people? It's an affront to the whole concept of a liberal democratic nation.

 

I think a giant internet community should form, millions of users, and all of them plot a pretend terrorist attack together. That should be fun.

"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." It's kind of naive to believe that, considering those in positions of authority who often abuse their privileges, do things you'll never know about that are illegal and serve their own purposes, and screw up on the regular are in charge of "doing the right thing" when it comes to that line of thought.

 

Aren't we already moving in that direction? Virtually all of the Occupy movement's demonstrations were met with police action in the US and similar efforts were made here in the UK.

When you've lost the right to protest. You've effectively lost all your rights because you effectively no longer have a voice outside the corrupt political system of the day.

 

Related story about the NSA and the UK cracking down on newspaper reporters -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/18/david-miranda-detained-uk-nsa

 

While I'm sure it seems silly and paranoid to some, I was slightly apprehensive at starting this thread because I am well aware of how such public conversations can get one on the radar of their own government in uncomfortable ways. I know I'm not alone with such reservations. So while I personally believe that most of the people working in my government genuinely are good people trying to effective positive change in the world, simply knowing that my public (and private) conversations are being observed changes the tone of my dialogue. My friends in security/military/LEO and I often joke about the government-monitored nature of our private phone conversations while we're having those private phone conversations. This is something most "insiders" in those industries have done for many years now, and it absolutely does change what they will discuss "privately" with even their closest friends and relatives.

Thanks for that Ero. Now I'm even more likely to get NSA probed for this thread. I guess Mitch AND a few spooks will soon learn the funky origin of my mystery stinky finger.

 

No you don't. IED is improvised explosive device, a bomb with a trigger set. Be it magnetic or , water , or pressure or time.
HME is what would go inside the IED, and various other devices.

That sort of stuff im completely against. Being listened to when calling back home, is expected. Your pre warned at the start of the phone call.

I think you mean the 5 eyes agreement.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
Int sharing is offcourse neccesary, but what get released to whom is offcourse a bigger issue.

I think one of the issues is because they all work on the dark side getting honest and accurate information about whats being recorded/share by and with whom for what reason is difficult to say the least.

What can we do? Applying pressure via legislative processes... but lets be honest 90% of the population aren't aware or don't care.

Raz
P.S An alien invasion any time now would be a good chance to wipe the slate clean. :woo:

 

I think this is worth posting directly to MAP, and thank you Fusen.

I'm confident I'll be customarily disappointed by the circulation this story receives here.

 

I'm the resident Conservative on the board, but I certainly don't believe the Government should circumvent the Constitution and spy on innocent citizens, no matter what the cost. I also don't agree with how Snowden handled the way he brought the information forward. It's one thing to be a whistle blower however it's seems wrong to not go through the proper channels and then run over seas to our quintessential enemies revealing who knows what.

 

How do you think he should have gone about revealing what he knew? What exactly do you think that the 'proper channels' would be, given the extraordinary nature of what he was revealing?

 

And that the 'proper chain' of getting it checkout out/revealed are all people who are part of it or would make sure to do something to keep his mouth shut. Dude took care of himself, can't blame him for that.

 

I would imagine that it's usually going to pan out that way for whistleblowers. I mean, if they thought that reporting something through the proper channels within their organisation would get results then they would do it. It's only because they don't that they become a whistleblower. And it isn't exactly taking the easy option - especially if you are blowing the whistle on something like your country's armed forces.

 

The cold war ended. Russia now participates in NATO partner programs. Are they now your enemies because they don't do everything your country wants them to do? Sounds kinda dictatorial.

The Obama administration has prosecuted more whistle-blowers than any other president in recent history. Why would this guy go through "official" channels? What would he achieve? He'd have been sacked or worse and the problem he highlighted would have "gone away".

And just who exactly would he have turned to in officialdom? The president? Doesn't he support what the NSA are doing?

Snowden didn't run to Russia to hand over all the secretes. He handed the documents over to the Guardian. Which is why one of it's reporters partners was being harassed by police using anti-terror legislation in a wholly abusive manner.