Trump by name......

lol that would be quite charitable. it seems his real talent is one of division. this seems to be the whole point, no? he's going to keep bringing up race, making sure the "liberal" press calls him a racist. all he's doing is solidifying his base.

he reminds me of a school-yard bully. excellent at taunting. basically, over 60 million americans voted for a racist bully to be our executive. nice world we're living in.

the south of france is looking more and more enticing with each passing day. the mediterranean. french wine. french cheese. rugby.

 

Just a minor point,folks.

I don't think G. Washington & the gang should be brought up.

Washington,Jefferson,Adams,Franklin,etc -(and even quite a few of my ancestors!) who fought in the Continental army were traitors. They rebelled against their government,some breaking solemn oaths.

We can blow off fireworks on the 4th of July because the war ended in favor of the (future) US of A. Otherwise all the major players would have been hung,imprisoned,etc."cause they were traitors.We just prefer to call them patriots."Cause we won. The 1775 revolution is certainly not comparable in justifiable circumstances to say,the Irish "problems" beginning in the Elizabethan period onwards.Or Nat Turner's.Or the Mau Mau.Point of fact many of the Founding Fathers had purely mercenary reasons for fomenting/joining the revolt.Sam Adams and ol' George spring immediately to mind.

Also,we can decry people choosing to fight for a regime that wasn't just focused on oppressing/exterminating native peoples but also wished to keep another oppressive/exploitative institution going but I suggest some of you familiarize yourselves with the mid 19th century mindset regarding one's home state and the country as a whole. Much,much different than today. While I don't agree with the CSA government platform it is quite understandable why many chose not to fight for the Union against their individual state.

In Lee's case he is only one of some of the military leaders who thought secession was idiotic.He's also only one of some who fought against the Federal government because he could not "raise my sword against my country" (Virginia) or words to that effect. Identification with your state was a major thing then as opposed to now. A "matter of honor." Even if we,with our modern sociological outlooks feel that honor was misplaced.

And I say this knowing I'd probably have quite few more relatives today if Lee's boys hadn't killed 'em at Chancellorsville.

 

i think you have many interesting points. but one in particular....

i think for me, lee is rightly pilloried. i get the identification with virginia. but at the end of the day, this man chose to take up arms to expand the enslavement of human beings. but i'm curious, how many others chose the same route? i don't know how to even find this information out. how many virginians went union versus confederate?

i don't see how it's honorable to stick with one's country or state no matter what. that seems to be the opposite of honorable. that just, to me, means we have no morality and are just tribalists.

 

And ... you've just revealed the reason that Trump was elected, in my opinion, and may end up being re-elected if he isn't forced out before then. Every petty dictator the world over knows that the quickest way to solidify your power is to create an "us vs. them" scenario. If you can get people to identify with "us", you can get them to do almost anything as long as there's a "them" that they can focus on, because the origin of mankind lies in tribal identity. The great majority of people just want to 'belong'.

 

So what your saying is, he was 'only following orders'?

I'm not a big fan of moral relativism, and neither are normally republicans/trumpettes, funny that isn't it.

 

People are enjoying putting a caption to this picture

So this is apt.....

 

i'm a father of 3. no, i'm not going to defend my family no matter what. and i'm pretty sure that you wouldn't either.



"oh well"

 

It's incredible scary to read here/ links and the such the exact same opinions on how nothing too bad could happen as were said back in the day in Germany.
Scary as hell, really

 

I think moral relativism is a demonstrable fact. The racists in Charlottesville only serve as further evidence of it, as they believe they are on a moral crusade.

That in no way prevents me from finding their views disgusting.

 

slavery was just a fact of life? there weren't abolitionists in 1860 and before? oh wait...
Uncle Tom's Cabin - Wikipedia

martin luther king took up arms against the united states of america because he didn't like teh gayz?

 

Less about who the people were, more about what they are remembered for and what the statues represent.

 

But all of that is irrelevant to why the statues should be removed from public places. The statues were originally erected because these people were heroes of the Confederacy, which was committed to slavery and considered black people to be less than human. Today, we know that this is wrong, so these people should no longer be considered "heroes" to anyone. They are a part of our history however, so these statues (those that aren't terrible, and some of them are!) should be relegated to museums.

 

Trump takes in eclipse from White House


I think this is a great example of trump style thinking.....

 

But again, that's our sense of morality. There really was a different mindset.There are certainly people,for good or ill, who act the same way today- "doesn't matter if my friend/brother/whatever was in the wrong,I'll stand by him". I've seen that enough times.

One person's "matter of honor" can be perceived by another as idiocy. One of the McCoys (think Hatfield vs. McCoys) fought for the union and when he went home after the war someone murdered him.His family members felt he deserved it.And those folks sure didn't have any plantations.

Let's not forget that when the war started for the Federals it was a matter of preserving the union,not abolishing slavery.Fact is, a whole lot of Yankee soldiers were very upset when they felt the war had changed to one of freeing the slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation.

As to other bits--
Every state in the C.S.A. sent troops to the Federal forces.

I can't tell you estimated numbers for VA or anywhere else.Sorry.As I said before,Lee wasn't the only southern West Pointer who felt secession was wrong,but led troops against the blue anyway.You may note if you chose to learn about the war that many of the officers who stayed w/the Union understood why fellow officers/former classmates didn't.

"At the end of the day" this man (Lee) also did not choose to resign his commission during the unjust war where the US stole half of Mexico.You should read what he and others in the army had to say about how they felt about it.They didn't resign either.They followed orders. So most all the senior staff on both sides of the civil war were already guilty of sticking to their state/country during a conquest they recognized as an unjust land grab.

Bunch o' tribalists . Or career soldiers. You make the call.

Personally,and I'm not opining on monuments one way or the other,but I think Lee is probably the best individual symbol of the tragedy of the entire war. He's also the guy who wanted NO monuments to the CSA as he wanted the nation's wounds to heal,and was instrumental in getting many people to take the oath of allegiance to the federal govt after the war.

 

Science deniel in action.