Yes, I completely agree with Stolenbjorn. Most of what I posted came from university articles (Victoria university) where my family studies and works (my aunty who is an authority on Maori sociology and professor at Victoria university), as well as individuals who work in parliament (who are also authorities on Maori culture and history) that my family knows. That's not to guarantee that what I post is 100% accurate, even with myself being part Maori (sometimes I do misread and misinterpret information), but what I do reference point towards as being historically valid and reliable. Victoria Universities online database I'll post the articles that I referenced: The full document I quoted from Whawhai Mekemeke - Boxing Te Maumau/Ringa Ringa - Wrestling Other materials referenced: Maori Weapons in Pre-European New Zealand - Jeff Evans This Documentary below and others covering the art of Mau Rakau (this documentary features family friend Dr. Pita Sharples, he is an authority on Maori history and warfare and happens to be the founder of the Mau Rakau organization, Te Whare Tu Taua o Aotearoa: click on Ngaa Peka for clubs) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKlqol_Hn6s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKlqol_Hn6s[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR1oBQU0HkI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR1oBQU0HkI[/ame] Here's a nice little clip here that I think showcases the art form quite well Here the Toa (warrior) is wielding a Rakau (stick) and a Wahaika (mouth of the fish, a short club used for jabbing) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvYeG-trZ6s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvYeG-trZ6s[/ame]
Ah yes, I can think of others to add onto that list. There's Abir (known informally as Jew Jitsu) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV8S1jw9VN4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV8S1jw9VN4[/ame]
Hang on, here's a question (hopefully we can get back on topic after this): Are we really knowledgeable enough to comment on the above "questionable" styles? Ok, some are pretty easy to guess but are they all? To be honest, before I came to Japan I cared very little for Japanese styles & thought most were ineffective (to put it nice). After meeting some truly talented Martial Artists here and their styles I realized I was wrong. Anyway, how do these "tribal" styles (the real ones haha) compare to modern Martial Arts (yep, I am counting Asian & Western Martial Arts as modern for this. COnsidering Australian Aboriginal culture is the oldest continuing culture on earth I think they earned that right!)
Sorry about my little outburst, I tend to get a overly excited when it comes to sharing anything cultral (it runs through my family ) Before I get started, the more formal word for 'tribal' (depending on the context) would be indigenous. It doesn't offend the polotically correct minded people as much. I know from my own experience, the best way to find out if a martial art is genuinely historical and indigenous is to research (university databases, libraries, museumes, getting in touch with local tribes and communities). Anything that is shown on TV, I would take as second opinion unless stated otherwise, if its a documentary or show developed by the indigenous community portraying their martial arts then take it as first opinion since they are representing themselves. Why are the some of styles stated above questionable? Everyone has their own different reasons on this, but here are my own; Lack of historical resources and evidence to prove its origins The character and history of the founder who developed the current body of the martial art in question - Who is the founder and what reputation does he/she have? What experience does he/she have in the martial arts? What is his/her knowledge regarding the martial arts cultral history? How did the he/she discover the martial art? The foundation of the martial art - What does it consist of and what are its origins? How do indigenous martial arts compare to modern martial arts? Depends on the martial art. Since every martial art is its own I can't use a blanket term, not to mention their literally hundreds if not thousands of different modern and indigenous martial arts out there. There are some indigenous martial arts that have stood the test of time and have proved with each passing generation its worth. New Zealands own indigenous martial art, Mau Rakau, is one of them. What you'll find with the indigenous martial arts that have stuck around is that they are adaptable and they work. As the Toa (warriors) in my culture figured out, the techniques that they used when they wielded the Taiaha could also be applied to a walking stick, cane or a stick, swords and muskets, the techniques that they used when they wielded the Wahaika, Patu and Mere (clubs) were adaptable for the use of smaller weapons, a hand axe to the beer bottle. As a result, the Toa were feared by the European Soldiers before the Treaty of Waitangi was established. Others I can think of outside of my country that are still practiced today include; Kushti, Bkyukl Bokh, Pradel Serey, Buno, Pankration, Laamb, Dambe, Nguni Stick Fighting (Donga/Dlala Nduku) and Lua. Just to name a few. Now there's nothing wrong with modernizing an indigenous martial art. We've seen this done with martial arts such as Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA etc. which all find their backgrounds in some very ancient martial art styles (like the ones I've listed above). Coreeda, the style that you do, appears to be a modernized version of what would of been originally practiced. The founder of the current body acknowledges this, and it appears that he has done allot of research into this martial art as well as other indigenous martial arts. Coreeda is a marriage of aboriginal culture (dancing, music and lore) with modern grappling styles (Judo and Greco-roman wrestling), making it as Australian as you can get. Coreeda is a reflection of the fusion of cultures that modern day Australia is made up of.
Hapuka, no worries about getting excited, I do it too! (Way too much!!) I avoided the word "indigenous" (though it is the correct term) as Indigenous Australians (I am one) use the capital "I" & I thought it would be confusing saying "indigenous" & "Indigenous" for people from other countries reading this. But thanks for fixing that up. The lack of recorded Australian Aboriginal (the term most people in Japan where I live know so the one I use) culture makes it difficult to "prove" things but yeah, Gavin Dickson, the guy behind modern Coreeda, has permission from the Elders to do it & support from others. (Can't tell you how many times I've heard "I didn't know Aboriginals had Martial Arts!"!!) Still, there isn't much recorded about Traditional Australian Aboriginal Martial Arts so it would make it hard to "prove" it is legit. One of my Elders (who is also a Teacher of our Martial Arts, but not Coreeda,) gives his ok to it and, I guess, the word of my Elder is more than enough for me. I think that is a big thing for cultures like ours. Our Elders knowledge makes it easy for us to see what is truly a part of our cultures past. But yeah, it would be hard, I imagine, to give evidence where many cultures don't have the records of such things. The whole "it's not the Art it's the Artist" is important, but I've seen a simplicity in what I do that works good. I rely a lot on Kangaroo Dance more than others who do it and that helps me a lot in fighting, and the natural movements can be applied in high-stress situations (something that I cout as very important in a Martial Art).
As a norwegian living in Norway, I can comment on HEMA, as I have studied that for some 10 years. I can allso comment on "viking" martial arts and more reacent norwegian combat traditions. IMO the main difference between modern (as in paying money and going to a gym, training to fill the teachers pockets, to win a sporting event, to survive on the streets or to feed the inner chackra) and the styles I can comment on, is that in the good old days, they weren't talking about styles at all. In europe they focused on the masters; "I studied x years under [insert name here]" The longsword-brands "german style", "italian style" is modern lingo. Fiore di liberi wrote for instance "I studied under several german masters", and he is the progenitor of the modern "Italian style" The difference betweeen modern ma and Viking/sami/norwegian martial arts, is that we have no sources on how they fought, and everything you read about viking ma is 100%hoax or guesswork. In medieval times, european ma was allso focused on in Norway, and you would be trained in the barracks by the more experienced soldiers. My guess is that it was the same in viking age. Sagas written several years after the viking times, indicates that there was some degree of father to son-teaching, but we don't know what they taught eachother. There remain some info on the rules conserning duels, either first blood, or to the death "Holmgang", and there is allso mentioning of vikings fassinations for sports, martial sports, and inteletcual sports (wordfeuding, etc). The only rural norwegial MA i know about is the Telemark duel system of two challengers linking their belts together, and having the belt work as a ring around eachothers middle, to work as a distance-indicator (so they cannot run away), then wrestle with small knives, eithe first blood or to the death (as both parties would be drunk, this is usually not agreed upon beforehand). Apart from this, prejudices can force people into certain acts. Like sami in norway have a reputation of pulling knife in fights when drunk. This is probably not more true or false than with norwegians. One funny thing about modern tribal arts, is the youth-crime-gangs of asian immigrants love for "ninja" and "samurai" weaponry, and love for eastern martial arts. All sword-related crime in norway is done by the katana
Stolenbjorn said: One funny thing about modern tribal arts, is the youth-crime-gangs of asian immigrants love for "ninja" and "samurai" weaponry, and love for eastern martial arts. All sword-related crime in norway is done by the katana This is a funny one. I live in Japan. Talk to people here about crime in foreign countries with katana etc and they look at you kinda strange, especially when most if not all are imitations! I've known a few people of Japanese heritage who wereborn & raised in other countries talking about their "ninja heritage" or what not. The "ninja" school that has fame around the world is hardly known at all here (PLEASE don't say that's the way of the ninja!!! because otherwise how would you know who I'm talking about?) & when you tell people they laugh. That's not to take away from the skill of the guys who train there, I've had some mates who went there for a while & they were good! But I think it comes back to most of us wanting to know where we come from & represent our heritage. Especially living in another country you where your heritage on your sleeve!
