Coming from a traditional martial arts background I feel that the traditional martial arts are often misrepresented and misunderstood. Tradition to many seams to mean "stuck in the past". Yet when we study the history of traditional martial arts they have never been stagnant constantly studying the other arts of the day and developing to answer them. Often I hear sayings such as "be like water" attributed to Bruce Lee and "I make no style my style." To a traditionalist be like water means awase blend with the attack and to continue the water analogy, redirect it or indeed flow over it. No style as my style again finds it's mirror in the posture of the martial artist in combat must be his everyday posture. Fighting without fighting came from Tsukahara Bokuden. As a traditional aikidoka I study strikes throws pins weapons so could claim to study mixed martial arts. I also cross train with friends in other martial arts. Perhaps there is truly nothing new under the sun in martial arts maybe it is simply the perspective of those training. One lesson that has remained with me from traditional martial arts is..in martial arts good manners and proper ettiquette are important but above all , if you can understand the true value of your art, everything you say or do in regard to the arts shall be done with a feeling of modesty , sincerity and respect. Martial arts should be a brotherhood. regards koyo
Your intuition is correct, if someone is connecting the water analogy to the idea of "no style as style" they are taking that quote out of context. That's not what Bruce meant. MMA is nothing new. Seeing pretty much WC technique in old school western boxing has helped me appreciate the fact that there is really nothing new under the sun. Etiquette, ethics and morals are not what MAs are about, MAs are about war hence the term martial (in reference to Mars the god of war). MAs are about fighting and we must never loss sight of this fact. Etiquette, ethics and moral code are great to have within MA training, but when these are put first we end up doing more harm then good. My 2c.
I agree totally about the martial arts retaining the martial effectiveness. Ettiquette etc should be applied in a martial way. Disrespect gets you dumped on the mat. Respect must be gained not demanded.If someone offers less than an accurate and powerfull attack that is disrespectfull. If someone falls when the technique is not effective that is disresectfull. I think we are both on the same track here. Most of my other posts have been against anything that weakens the martial aspect of the arts. regards koyo
Sadly, though, this is the way many traditional arts are practiced today. Many stay stagnant, as you put it, refusing to adapt their techniques to fit the modern world. As a reference I'd like to use the over-criticized Bujinkan Ninjutsu. Many Ninjutsu schools lack aliveness in their training, treating it as a foreign concept, and adhere to the traditional structure of their practice and techniques religiously. After seeing demonstrations and videos of Hatsumi Soke, I really don't think that the majority of Western Bujinkan schools reflect his views of Budo at all. Hatsumi has constantly adapted his art and how it is practiced, so that it can actually be put to use when the need arises. I have seen no evidence to show that training at the Hombu lacks aliveness (although I could be wrong), but that is the focus of the criticism against Ninjutsu. Same could be said for Tae Kwon Do. It's generally regarded as being useless in combat by a great portion of the MA community. It's not because Tae Kwon Do is ineffective, but because it is often taught in a way that does not reflect actual combat. Old debate, old answers. Just my take.
I always think of martial arts which are traditional and don't adapt to modern combat etc. as hobbies. They are just a group of people who get together and practice set movements and patterns, they never use movements outside of its system (e.g. always punching WC/Bujinkan style) and always follow the same entrances of attack. They just seem more like hobbies, they arent striving to see if they could apply their techniques to wild roundhouse punches or other attacks you are more likely to face on the all famous street.
Exactly. It may seem a little childish, but people who take martial arts for hobby or fitness purposes really rub me the wrong way. I just feel that their lack of martial motivation is diluting the already watery world of traditional MA. Their aversion to learn actual fighting principals or practice live training slowly and subtly pushes many schools to exclude these things altogether. There are some teachers who rely on their schools for the meager income they provide, and they're sometimes forced to cater to the fitness crowd as well. Sad business, I think. :woo:
Hi guys Traditionally schools were small. They were not social gatherings.This is why I prefare a smaller group to train where it is aknowledged from the first class that it is a martial art that we are studying. Coming from aikido I have seen it changed beyond belief.I also agree that martial arts are not for fun or fitness. While we must retain the martial aspects , character development it also important so that we become physically and emotional strong and balanced. This can only be developed outside our comfort zone and under challenge. My main teacher stated "Aikido is the confrontation of two spirits" meaning he would challenge us to have no limits. regards koyo edit proper manners and ettiquette would allow us to exchange views and ideas rather than allow threads to digress into who could fight who etc.
couldn't agree more in fact i spent most of yesterday with a friend who trains in Wado Ryu Karate working out where and how each other was vunerable to attack it's my aim in the future to learn a striking art (almost certainly JKD) as well as one involving groundwork (Judo or BJJ) so i've got well rounded self defence capabilities i think the fitness or martial arguement is really down to the direction the head instructor wishes to take it and strong leadership (and that doesn't mean beating everyone up)encourages others to follow where they might not have thought it possible my dojo is strongly in favour of the martial aspects for example the fact that you'll get fitter as a result of training is secondary
I do agree that mental/character/spritual training is important, but thats my personal opinion. I do not believe that traditional schools should teach it, "because thats the way it is," for example you bow because thats the way we do things, there has to be meaning behind it. I also think that those aspects of martial art training are optional. You can train in martial arts and do no mental training at all, its purely a personal preference.
There is a difference between koryu tradition and gendai tradition, often the two are mistaken and that's where confusion happens. Koryu tradition maintains and transmits the ryu today authentically as it was back in the day, gendai, by virtue of the fact it is "modern" means that its "traditions" are new and still forming thus it is free to develop and change (hopefully by those qualified and experienced to do so) Koryu bujutsu didn't just occur over night; back then, it wasn't "koryu" it just was . Today, those of us who study the "oldschool" maintain it as was otherwise it wouldn't be "oldschool" thus some might say we're stuck in the past however; Aikido is a gendai budo thus it is still developing, some might argue about its development and that would be a different topic of debate.
I do not think we should attempt to teach philosophy or manners by word of mouth. The sincere training ON THE MAT shall develop character. I would hate to produce clones of myself .Simply training in an effective manner shall challenge the inadequacies in our body and our minds. There cannot be a template for this as we are all different individuals.This being so we can all learn from each other rather than imposing our wishes on each other. BUT we must become our own severest critics. Someone points out a weakness in me I shall investigate it rather than immediately defend it. regards koyo
To me traditional means an art that incorporates history and culture. That's it. I don't think phrases as "Stuck in the past", "stagnant methods" or "not suitable for the modern world" apply. The first two you apply to people, not an art. People are lazy and train dishonestly, made to stroke the ego rather than break it down. The third is just bizarre. People 5000 years ago were made of the same pudgy tissue we are, they have two arms, two legs, a torso and a head - just like us! If someone came up with a throw 5000 years ago that worked, you are pretty damn guaranteed it will work today. Most Traditional Martial Arts were devised to hurt and kill people. Many people prior who done kung fu, or jiujitsu, or whatever, used it to kill people. That's how they trained, that's how they used it. It gets a slagging because most people who do it are hobbyists and don't want cut lips or to be hit hard. Hardly the arts fault. The Aikido that Koyo does is the same as the people who wear headbands and dance about. Its how he trains the art and the principles that is different. He isn't a big girls blouse who only cares about how good he looks and how much he can congratulate himself with a new rank and belt. Last Sunday at Tai Chi I got a fat lip, and the person I was training with had a sore face and ear. We weren't even sparring just freeing up some pushing hands. Same Tai Chi your average tree hugging hippy does, different approach and priorities.
By nature I am an anti-traditionalist. I dislike dogma of any sort and don't view respect, manners and hard training as traditional. These are essential training methods to allow people to inflict damage on others without malice and to a constructive end. Though I am not a saint and will drop someone who has been a little "cheeky" in loose play. Hi Pirate, see you saturday night at Colin's? The Bear.
By traditional I mean people who trained as if their life depended upon it and took into acount that they would have to face other arts and survive. Turning Japanese and having swords on their wall doesn't quite make it for me. Traditionaly the budoka would learn from each other. O Sensei invited masters from numerous martial traditions to teach at his dojo. This has changed a lot with many never venturing out of their own habitat and not welcoming others from other arts into their dojo. I have had numerous visitors and learned about myself from interacting with them (pirate and the two bears) Sadly I have also had some visitors who knew nothing about martial arts yet held dan grades. regards koyo
Dunno if I could ever be accused of being a martial artist. However I have trained with a lot of people and just happy I have stood my ground. The Bear.
Not everyone is as open-minded as yourself. I have been encouraged not to return from one or three places. Been told that if I ever "questioned" Sensei again I would be banned from the club. The Bear.
Ha Ha Ha!!!! I love it. Encouraged not to return. Always welcome at the makotokai, but be warned Chris is off to training in Thailand for a fortnight.I may need your help to handle him when he returns. regards koyo
SEMPAI KOHAI I much prefare the sempai kohai manner of training that was the way when I started and which I still promote in my own club. Sempai meaning senior student and kohei meaning junior. Senior NOT superior. The sempai with more experience shall take it upon himself to assist any student his junior in their efforts to progress.To aid in pointing out their weaknesses and show how he himself overcame them. Gradings are irelevant as ALL are seen as students of the arts. As Pirate has posted gradings are rife with politics in some areas and become more important than sincere training. The early teachers were called Sensei (it was only in seventies that shihan was used so much Now we have shihan kanchu and 15th dans etc. rendering the terms almost meaningless) and students , simply called students. Chasing grades and position was looked upon as egotistical. Better to see practisioners as brothers and sisters in martial arts , whatever art. regards koyo Again I post what Chiba shihan said. "I shall not teach you but you may join me in the struggle to progress in the art." regards koyo
