As a counter argument we don't hold any gradings until someone wants to test as an instructor. Our reasoning is that much like boxing you are either training or you're not. I also dislike systems that exclude students from certain things until they reach a particular grade.
My Sifu puts it this way. Some people are interested in GETTING a black sash. But the focus should be on BEING a black sash. To use the university comparison. Getting an A by cramming, but forgetting the material soon after because you didn't really study it to learn it, but just to pass the test. Or truly integrating the knowledge as a forever thing. I have seen advanced students just cram what they need to know, but then stop practicing certain things when they pass a test and that material is no longer needed for a future test. I am more interested in the skill that that material teaches me and strive to still practice everything in my curriculum and get better. (Granted, I am having some difficulty fitting all of it in right now, but I will get that figured out.)
What kind of things? Don't you have a certain order in which you expect students to learn before moving on to more complicated things? I don't think your system does forms. But I can tell you this. I am learning, or have recently learned, certain forms that should NOT be taught until an advanced level IMO. Advanced students hit themselves in the head learning three section staff. That form is difficult and dangerous to learn. I think it is entirely a good idea that in my school, one does not learn that form until black sash level. Wooden dummy also fits this. We have a movable arm that can really hurt you if you don't move just right. There is a part of the two person for I am learning where I hold the spear behind me and block over my head while my partner comes down on my head from behind me with a broadsword. I trust my partner, to stop herself if I mess up. No way I would do that form with anyone at intermediate or beginning levels. I only have one head. Also, one doesn't learn how to do a spinning jumping type kick in my school until passing the lower level tests that have the basic kicks first. It makes no sense to learn to do a jumping kick until you can do that same kick from the ground. Students can join sparring right away. But when we have beginners in sparring class, we don't do things like head shots. They don't have the control and others don't want to practice a thing that could have repercussions in our work and family life with people that haven't learned that basic control. Heck, I was taking head shots from some beginner who was wild as heck the other day. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if she was actually allowed to target the head.
Boxers don’t learn double hook until they can land single...that doesn’t need a belt just an involved coach
Sashes are just a formalized way of the same thing. Involved coach/ instructor tests you when you are ready. It really isn't all that different. the idea being that there is an order to learning martial arts skills. Whether you formalize it with sashes/belts or not, it really is just a rose by any other name. Even without sashes, I bet coaches/ instructors have an order to how they teach students - with beginning skills being learned before other skills are taught.
I generally think "percentage of effectiveness/likeleness" is the best thing to be taught. "How often will I be attacked by a three piece staff?" "Probably never" Then I won't bother learning it ecember Some people are held back from sparring and introduced to it slowly so that hey can get used to it over time but they are still taught combinations and techniques by how likely the are to occur or apply.
I wouldn't be teaching some knife drills to someone who just walked through the door, but if it's sparring day then the newby is sparring. It may be at a lower level, but I dislike exclusion just because someone doesn't hold a high grade. I recall just being a few years into training and my instructors held a seminar with Master Kim Han. He started the seminar by having low grades at one end of the hall and black belts at the other. At the end of the seminar I was asked what I thought. "I thought he was useless", I said. They were horrified. Exclusion and segregation is wrong. Yes there may be a sliding scale, but I would never make someone wait until a certain belt before teaching them something. Why do we all struggle with getting students? It's because we are stuck in 1970s martial arts films, whereas MMA puts you in a rash guard and chucks you in the ring with Big Dave and the kids love it.
If you aren't teaching knife drills to someone new, then you do have an order to teaching things. And you do make people wait before teaching them something though. Sparring at a lower level still means you are holding back too then? I think we are arguing semantics here. But I agree that the sort of segregation you are talking about is wrong. People can spar from whenever in our school. And the advanced people work with the beginners. We all work with everyone. I remember my long time instructor having NO tolerance for her advanced students copping an attitude if they expressed issues with working with everyone. You rolled your eyes at being teamed up with a beginner, you were doing jump squats or push ups. We do not have people learn weapons until intermediate level. But that is not to exclude anyone. It is because it is thought that getting a foundation in hand stuff- be it hand sparring or forms is the safer way to develop skills. It is about building skills upon a foundation of basics first. It isn't just martial arts that does that. Most things anyone learns starts with basics and adds to it. You may be in a rash guard first, but I doubt anyone starts beginners off with practicing heel hooks. Don't know a lot about grappling, but heel hooks from watching MMA seem to be a particularly dangerous move, so I am guessing beginners rarely start with that. Am I correct?
This is a big difference between a formalised art and a combat sport senior doesn't mean you know more and more stuff it means you can make what you know work against anyone the difference between a 12month student in mma and a 6year pro isn't how many different techniques they know but the timing and ability to make the techniques they both know work. Traditional arts get caught up in holding things back until you grade and are apparently ready, combat sports don't really hold anything back but whether you can apply it under pressure against someone really good is the question they force you to answer
That's one reason the other is people are less easily fooled these days They know what fights look like so when they see something that is totally alien to what they see in the ring or cage they are less inclined to believe someone when they say this will work trust me I'm a black belt
So, you are saying these arts teach everything at the same time- no matter the level? Heel hooks to absolute beginners on the first day? Combinations of punches before the basics of the actual punches? No order whatsoever?
Combos yes, heel hooks sort of. in grappling there is a fundamental set of positions and techniques everyone learns, then after that everything is fair game. I think icefield is referring to things like "You can't learn a side kick until you're a green belt because it's not in the syllabus until then".
As long as there is an order to how someone learns something, it is a rose by any other name then. Someone (instructor) decides when you are ready to learn something in a particular order- sash or not. It really isn't any different in essence. When an instructor decides you are ready to learn the new stuff, that is what happens. One is just more formalized. There really isn't a difference.
The difference is there is order by “can you do it?” And order by “that’s for the next grade level” In principle very similar, in practice very different I will use the triangle choke as an example - I have a student who has legs like tree stumps and has massive issues with triangles...conversely they have reverse twister down pat Both are submissions from guard but in a “next grade” system not being able to do one would stop you doing the other; in my syllabus for Ju Jutsu (and yes I do actually have a belts system in that ) I have a rubric rather than a syllabus and it allows each person to play to their abilities whilst still developing
The only reason I would exclude someone from doing anything is if they lacked sufficient movement capacity to do a technique (regardless how bad it looks) without hurting themselves. Everyone who trains with me is given a comprehensive movement assessment - kind of like a mind & body M.O.T. - where I test everything including posture, range of motion, strength, tissue integrity, motor control, and beliefs. If a person cannot raise their leg past knee height because of scar tissue from old trauma, then they are excluded from practising high kicks until that scar tissue problem is resolved. But there is a legitimate reason for doing so, and they are taught everything else they are physically able to do, including sparring from day one. The only reason you should stop beginners from sparring in their first lesson is because you are a poor instructor who cannot adequately supervise clients in the activity you claim to be able to teach.
Yep also past the beginner class (which not all gyms have) you will normally all learn the same techniques if the coaches is teaching a class based around the kimura those new to the submission will probably focus on the technical aspects of the submission whilst those more senior will focus on using it to sweep take the back, set up arm bars etc, but all will be shown the same material skill level will determine what they focus on. Its the same with a combination if its the first time you have done boxing you will concentrate on the jab, foot work body position etc to start but you will be shown the same combination techniques as everyone in the class and when you are comfortable you will try the whole combination, This way everyone from beginner to pro gets a refresher of the basics, the most important things and can build their game at their own pace
I had a white belt 6 year old attempting 360s tonight, she did well. I don't even teach kids that young, not sure how she snuck in My students are graded on particular techniques and patterns at particular grades, classic TMA structure. That doesn't mean they only learn those things at that level, and cannot learn things earlier. Generally, the earlier they start working on something the better they will be, given all the usual caveats on foundations etc. So if this little girl keeps training, keeps sparring (as she is already, at an appropriate level), keeps developing, she'll be hell on wheels by her teens
It took me six years - Francis Fong / Jiu Wan lineage. Wing Chun, like other martial arts, is a physical skill. It takes time to learn and time to develop the skills. And come on - I have kids older than 23. I was 51 when I got my black sash. You're fortunate that you had the opportunity to start at such a young age.
