[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBIothx-6G8"]YouTube- Ohtsuka II Gyaku nage[/ame] Gyakunage seems to be a nijutsu thing, found some other clips, not really Kata as i understand it, more like Bunkai? or Kihon? (not sure of terminology). A lot of the other Wadoka in my dojo don't know the difference between having Intent and losing the rag (i've asked everyone that i spar with regularly to stop apologising!)
Drifting off topic is good sometimes. below I have struck a jab aside (shotokan ude uke?) and entered up the side (aikido jo irrimi?) am about to apply kessa gatame (judo strangle?) and if there is only one opponent I could take him to ground and submit him (MMA?) So the question arises ..what the hell am I doing. The answer is ANY of the aforementioned arts. If there are no throws in karate it is because YOU are not applying them NOT because your teacher did not show you them. You are told to master the basics then fight naturally..so go for it. Who cares what you call it? Any limitations to an art are set by the student/teacher.
Hi Arthurking. Could be "hiji-te kansetsu gyakutorinage" as seen here toward the end of the clip: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0E3L1rtULI&feature=related"]YouTube- Wado Kai Tedori 2[/ame] Kihon Kumite, Idori and Tantodori etc are all Kata - they are just with a partner. Train with Hakoishi and he demonstrates plenty of applications (Ohyo) to these kata also. Gary
This is an unqualified stab at it, but in the vids posted by both Arthurking and me, I can see a common theme (in terms of how the throws are executed). In the last throw in the Otsuka vid for example, you will see that he passes under "uke's" arm / turns as part of that process (turning uke's wrist whilst doing so) and throws in a "reverse aspect" in terms of where he (Otsuka) started. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBIothx-6G8&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Ohtsuka II Gyaku nage[/ame] It's the same here with Hakoishi in the Hiji-te kansetsu gyakutorinage Hiji-te (elbow-hand) Kansetsu (joint) gyaku (reverse) tori (person being attacked) nage (throw)???? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0E3L1rtULI"]YouTube- Wado Kai Tedori 2[/ame] In other words "Tori" has turned into a reverse position in order to facilitate the throw - maybe?? Gary
Good old terminology. I can see what you mean. Have even heard gyaku used to mean reverse his enrgy by turning it against him. Thanks koyo
Maybe not. "Tori" here might be being used in its literal meaning of "to capture" or "to take" (toru), and not as a reference to the thrower or technique-user. Or possibly it's a generic description of the technique, with "kansetsu gyaku-tori nage" referring to "throwing by capturing and reversing the joint". Yep. Because the ideogram in question (pronounced gyaku or saka[rau]) means "reverse" or "oppose".
Kaeshi-waza is a generic word meaning "[a] countertechnique" or "countering [a] technique". (Kaesu literally means "to send back", so kaeshi-waza would mean "sending back [or otherwise reversing or counterattacking] [the enemy's] technique" or "technique [for] sending [an attack] back").
Thanks for the explanations. Kaeshe waza is the term we use when for example I am attempting to bend the opponent's elbow down and he presses against the technique and I use kaeshe waza (understood as alternate technique?) to change the technique to use his resitance to execute an alternate throw. Again thank you for the clarifications regards koyo If I may presume. I have thought that the term enten jizai ment attack and defence as one. Is this correct?Thanks in advance.
Thanks Bronze Statue that makes a lot of sense. Certainly in the Idori technique I posted, the arm is captured and the elbow / wrist joints are "reversed" as part of the technique. Otsuka is clearly doing the same thing (but in a different way) in the two other techniques he demonstartes however the description does not include the word "Kansetsu" so I didn't make the connection in this way. But its obvious if you think about it. Gary
I have heard the term "ko bo ittai" which is used more as a concept of attack and defence are one. Gary
I agree with this statement. When I first trained in tae kwon do, we were trained mostly in kicks, but some guys and girls trained to punch more often during sparring so they used their arms to strike more even though the tae kwon do provides a plethora of kicks.
bah, I hate coming in late on these great topics. Only read up to page 3 Originally karate was a striking based self-defense system. Not striking exclusive. Grappling was included, it was a necessity; however the focus was on beating the guy to incapacitation so the grappling was slightly limited. In modern karate I have never seen a serious club which doesn't teach the hip throw, the major outside reap, and (generally) leg throws. Past that it depends on what club and style you go to. Any club which practices bunkai (which should IMO be any club) should teach throws. Off the top of my head kata which contain throws (not including basic grappling, just throws) are as follows: -Heian Nidan (middle sequence can be interpreted as catching the leg and throwing) -Heian Sandan (I've seen the turn towards the end interpreted as a hip-throw) -Heian Yondan (leg throw in the middle) -Heian Godan (leg throws, middle section can be interpreted as a reap, another section can be interpreted as something similar to a hip-throw) -Bassai Dai (leg throw in the middle and end) -Kanku Dai (aka Kang Sung Goon) (throw on the pivots, leg throw coming up from the drop) -Cheong Kwan (A couple implied throws in the middle, leg throw towards the end) -Empi (jump at the end is a throw which I've seen interpreted from a fireman's carry to a simple shoulder throw, possible in the main sequence) -Seipei (a few throwing motions throughout the kata) My club (kwanmukan style) teaches a decent amount of throws in addition to bunkai. You don't get to black belt without doing ippon kumite which include a few throws, sanbon kumite (all of which we end with throws) and for nidan you need to learn 20 E-bo-no kata, all of which done at fighting intensity and pace. And that's only what we're tested on. I've learned enough grappling that I was able to hold my own against a 1st kyu at Jujitsu practice (I don't mean to throw ranks around but he earned his rank.) We keep a good amount of grappling practice in our syllabus.
Since we've been getting into the terminology thing, here's my best attempt at translating the names there. (If I got any of it wrong, feel free to laugh; I'll freely admit most of my Japanese has rusted away pretty badly.) Technique 1: [Unlabeled] Technique 2: Ude-dori ("Capturing the arm") Technique 3: Koromo kuguri ("Passing under/through the clothing/coat") Yeah, that's the one. I'll have to do a bit of looking around as for "enten-jizai".
Ko bo ittai will do just fine. The enten jizai was written down after a conversation with a Japanese teacher who had just complemented me in that my english was "coming on!!" You gotta love the Scots accent. thanks guys
The Wado Tanto-dori kata from which these techniques are drawn, are as follows - (although my translation is sure to be a bit dodgy): Tenchnique 1: Kotenage-dori (wrist take throw) Technique 2: Hikitate-dori [unsure of exact translation - "vertical or srtraight(ened) elbow/hand take"?? ] Technique 3: Hikiotoshi-dori (elbow/wrist dropping take). Gary
