Thoughts on Vunak remarks

Somehow I think "classical mess" would not apply to a more realistic training method as used by more "traditional" FMA schools. What I learned from JKD is that change is supposed to be for improvement not becoming less effective in training methods. Maybe in this case old-school is the better route?

 

Maybe your right when it comes to people ignoring the realities of real combat and choosing to ignore the hits they are receiving, I for one never done this in my WEKAF days and always acknowledged at least to my self that this guy caught me off guard or caught me with a good shot and I trained to rectify it next time and it used to annoy me when the people I played against ignored the shots I was giving out and would think they hit me more when in fact they may have got a few light taps to the body after I gave them a good solid shot to the head.

My personal preferance no longer lays with WEKAF but I can see the merits of using this format as a training tool, I much prefer like you say a middle ground, but that is a personal preferance and has no reflection on the WEKAF style of fighting. It is a great format if done correctly.

I can understand your reasoning with regards to people playing the lets just stand and bash the hell out of each other regardless way but unfortunetly the nature of the sport does not disallow this kind of fighting, but there have been a few top players over the years who have not fought like this and been very successfull and they have veiwed the sport not only as a bit of fun but also as a serious training tool and they will admit to you that it has improved certain attributes.

Why is it OK to train 500 hours with a Boxer (a sportsman) to improve your punches and 500 hours with a Thai/Kickboxer (a sportsman) to improve your kicking and 500 hours with a Wrestler/Grappler (a sportsman) to improve your ground work all of whom isolate their skills to one area of combat, but for some reason doing the same with a sports FMAer is different, surely the sports FMAer would be able to help you become a faster striker, teach you to have faster reactions against weapons strike, show you how you can play the ranges whilst under the pressure of a resisting opponent, surely this is the benefit of the sports FMAer regardless of what format they choose.

You do not have to like the various formats of sports FMA to see the value it can have in training (as Paul Vunak would say) 'Certain Attributes'?

Using pads in Boxing and Thai Boxing is a training too, but they must be used correctly, the same as using protection and sports formats of FMA are a great training tool if used correctly and if used incorrectly like the pads in Boxing and Thai Boxing it can be detremental to you. You cant simply make a sweeping statement stating that the sport version of FMA will be detramental to you as a whole as an FMAer, that is like saying you are no good as a boxer because you use pads and dont fight bare knuckle, or you are no good because you are an MMA fighter because you use a multitude of training aids and protection in your training and only fight in a cage. It simply does not stand up to the theory given out here, and remember it is only a theory. I know top class FMAers who have fought in the sports side and I also know top class FMAers who have not and even the ones that have no desire to compete in the sport side can see the value the sports has in training certain attributes, which in turn can (If Used Correctly) be a benefit to you as a whole in your traditional (What ever that means) FMA practitioner.

Just because someone does not like the look of something does not mean it has no merit and that is the point.

So if we use the sports FMA as a training tool, to enable you to train certain attributes up against a resistant fighter who you do not know be they good or bad, how can this be detremantal to your overall FMA training?

Best regards

Pat

 

But why not, apparently using rattan is like using a toy? Sorry but rattan has not only been used as a good training tool for many generations but also as a very practical weapon, but if by this your mean we should train more traditionally and more realistically, then we should throw away even our hardwood sticks, pull out the live blades and go at it like there is no tomorrow, That after all is what many would consider traditional training is it not.

For someone to tell me, if I fight with rattan I am fighting with a toy, well tell that to the guy I knocked out with one shot of my toy I say.

Best regards

Pat

 

One thing I have to add is that the sport side,especially wekaf, can give a false sense of confidence.
When you have all that armour on, you are willing to take more chances than what you would be willing to do normally.
Ask around and see how many times a padded sport fighter has stepped up
to the plate in a Black Eagle or Dog Brothers match and then fold after recieving the first hit due to the pain factor he wasn't expecting.
Now; I tell my students I can get you 95% of the way "there".
Meaning; I can build skill and with skill comes confidence. Thats 95% of it.
The other 5% I refer to is the remaining bit which will only take place in actual combat. I can't and won't take them that far. That very easily can result in permanent injury or even death.
This "formula" of training 500 hours with people is based on what?!
Vunaks Experience?
There is an old rule of thumb for boxers: "to prepare for a fight that lasts 45 minutes, you must train 45,000 minutes". Thats 750 hours for one sport.
So how long should you train for actual combat?
Special forces units get a 10th of that in the real world. Or less.
I have seen too many people who trained in sport often think they can handle actual situations. In reality, some can.
But wouldn't that be down to the individual?
Not everybody will have the same mindset, so a "general" rule thumb will be just that: "general". Not specific.
As for the previous question as to which twin to fight; I would say the guy trainied in NHB. For me; it's more realistic and I would have to use a mindset more suited to me to win. If it's against a sport fighter, I am almost garunteed to lose every time due to my disbelief of the manner of fighting.
He would win because he trains that way to win.
I.e; take the actor out of the set and he will lose because he trains to look good. Not be effective.

I hope this has contributed the questions posed somewhat.



Damien

 

Really, well it never done that to me or the multitude of WEKAF Champions I trained.

That is the nature of the sport, but that does not mean you loose touch with reality, but what it does give you is a chance to train certain skills and attributes in a somewhat safer environment, I say somewhat safer because I have seen on numerous occasions fighters getting seriously injured in this format.

Really, Well, we have, Me, Lucy, Neil McLeod, John Harvey, Jude Tucker, Louis Beale, Krishna Godhania, Simon Wells, Shiraz Hussain, Glynn Daniels OH I could go on, all at one time what you call Padded sports fighters, all stepped up to the plate at the Black Eagle meetings and not one of them folded??? Must be a one in a million thing eh

And lets take a serious look at groups such as the Black Eagle Society and the Dog Brothers. Are they not also when you look closely at it, A sport? After all they have time limits and they wear protection and they have some un-written rules such as tap-out when you have had enough, dont kill the guy if you are getting the better of him, and the use of rattan and no live blades. The rules may be loose compared to lets say WEKAF, Padded Stick Tournaments and Lwo Armour Tournaments but rules and protection they have and that by it's self makes it a sport, all be it an extreme sport. So are they not doing it right according to Mr Vunak's theory, then surely we are all doing it wrong as even sparring in the class is in a way a sport is it not?

Sound more to me like it is that old "I am doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong" marketing tool. If this is the case we must all be doing it wrong, after all how many FMA Schools do you know that dont use rattan sticks and have some form of sparring that has guidelines and rules involved? By Mr. Vunak's statement we would have to assume he also means Dan Inosanto and other top JKD Masters are doing it wrong, for they use rattan sticks and protection and I know of quite a few of their students who have competed seriously in the WEKAF events and yet they are still considered very able bodied in the arts as a whole. As a matter of fact Richard Bustillo was at one time the World Wide President of WEKAF and had many fighters in the event, so is he doing it wrong? More a case of dont do as I do, but do as I say dont you think?

Good advise, but surely this too can give a student a false sense of confidence depending on who is training them and what they are being taught, I know you have seen some so called 5th and 6th grade black belts that you know all too well could not punch their way out of a wet paper bag, but they feel confident as they firmly beleive what they have been taught is the best thing since sliced bread, is their onfidence real or false?.

Of course it can, like only training and sparring with hardwood sticks and no padding. So surely by using the equipment used by the so called sports you can take them as near to it as safely possible? I know you use padded sticks and helmets in your training dont you 'D' So to that effect are you not a sportsman? Or are you correctly using the tools offered to you by the sport to enhance your attributes for the real thing? But according to Mr. Vunaks thinking you are doing it wrong and you are taking away from the real art. Now do you see what I am getting at?

I also disagree with this formula as it is all a matter of instilling the right techniques coupled with the right mind set and some practical training, some may pick it up quicker than others and some may even need 500 in one area before moving on to the next. It all depends on how quick the individual can process the information given to them.

And they train in what would be Considered (taking on this, how the sport is detremental to the art thoery) Sport Soildering, blank bullets, flashbangs and no actual killing in training.

No, that would be down to how they are trained. I have seen weak kittens become ferousious fighters. How many people have you seen in the Army and on first meeting them you thought, this poor sod is going to buckle under the pressure and get himself killed, only to see tham after proper training turn in to a fighting machine??? Bet you have seen a few?

No they wont, but you can instill a good mindset in most people, and those you cant normally dont last the distance anyway and give up all training reagrdless if it is art or sport, so really dont come into the equasion.

I did not say anyone of them was trained for NHB, I said both had received the same training from the same Masters for the same time in the same style, neither has fought outside the club but one person has been allowed to compete and test his skills in sport and the other not.

So which one would it be?

Take the actor out of the set and face him off against someone who wishes to kill him and watch him fight for his life and who knows he may not only win, he may look good at it too

Yes it has, at least you have put some good points over, even if I do disagree with most of them.

Best regards

Pat

 

OK 'D',

Let's put it this way, do you consider yourself any less an FMAer or fighter becuase you use padded sticks and head guards when you spar in your training and you have guidlines (Rules) to you sparring? You use rattan sticks too dont you, are you any less able because of it? Are you any less an FMAer because you took out 5 muggers with a plastic flute instead of a hardwood stick? According to Mr. Vunak you are.

Do I know less about the FMA and am I doing it all wrong simply because I fought in over 400 WEKAF bouts? According to Mr. Vunak I am.

Was Bruce Lee doing it wrong because he used head guards in sparring and pads in teaching? According to Mr. Vunaks theory of FMA and how that should be trained he was. Or are their different rules for different styles of fighting???

Did this mean when I was being attacked on the door with weapons and successfully dealt with it that I was lacking because I done done WEKAF bouts, and still use the equipment to train with? According to Mr. Vunak I am.

As I said, they are tools, tools if used properly will enhance your skills.

You would never use a screwdiver to hammer in a nail but if you use it on a screw then you will find things a lot easier, know what I mean?

You would be surprised just how many people I meet in the building trade that have all the paperwork stating they are tradesmen but have not got a clue how to use their tools properly.

You would also be surprised to see as one tradesman looks at another tradesmans (with a different trade) tools yet he has no clue how to use the tools of the other trade no matter how he see's them being used. In theory you may know how a laser level is used, but in practice do you or will you without practice with that tool? See what I am getting at?

Best regards

Pat

 

Pat, have you read the article the OP referred to yet?

 

WEKAF type sparring and hardwood stick and no protection sparring is like trying to compare a nail gun and a hammer.

The hammer is the more traditional way to hammer in the nail, but the nail gun can get quicker results if used correctly, use it incorrectly then it becomes inefficient and even darn right dangerous, but that does not mean it is any less effective at hammering in the nail?

Get it.

Best regards

Pat

 

Affraid not, I could not find it and I have to at this point make assumptions on what our poster has said or what he is implying what has been said. As I said I could be getting the wrong end of the stick here (pun intended) but I am also responding to other peoples assumptions too. If I can get a direct quote it may well change my whole response to the theory being posed here and maybe I wont. But like anything I can only go on what I know so far.

Best regards

Pat

 

Cool, just wondered as I haven't either yet.

On a side note I find that "the Vu" generally has a habit of ruffling a few feathers, he's a good RBSDist, but I don't take him seriously in the slightest.

 

Of course I see the different aspects being beneficial.

What I was trying to get at,which is my mistake for not wording properly, is the ones who concentrate on the sport aspect only thinking it the be all to end all.
And I also have to express the fact that I do believe pain is a better teacher
than being hit with heavy padding on.(or should I just say...I like the pain )
Yes; I have seen "sissies" become the meanest fighters and soldiers I could imagine.
And I have "tough guys" bottle it and run for the hills at the first sign of trouble.
One thing everyone has to understand is my personal experience in this field is very limited. So I can only voice what I know.
Most of my previous time before fma was with sissy a$$ point fighters who actually annoyed me. So 20 years of seeing the "protected fighters" still rings heavy with me in my mindset.
Not to mention, I have never liked wekaf style sparring because of all the kit.
I do use padded sticks and helmets,but that is it.

As for me telling my students about getting them 95% of the way there, I don't really see it as instilling a false sense of confidence, I see it as making them look within themselves to find that other 5%.
I can train train a persons body and mind,but,as in the soldies situation, I can't train a persons soul.
Some people don't always have "it" and some don't realise they have "it" until they get door opened just a little wider.
But I can see where it could and does come across like it would be instilling a false sense of confidence for some.
(SB: that actually came about from someone who wanted argue about killing with a knife. I got fed up and asked him if he REALLY had the heart to do it and just exactly how did he know. He had never been in a fight in his life,but he knew he could kill. do they just know or do they just show?)
In some of the stuff I have read and heard by Vunak, he comes across as the scientologist of fma at times!

And no, padded fighters have fallen many times by the wayside when hit with live rattan. I know you can go on with the list,but none the less, it has and does happen. I have seen point fighters quit in the middle of the first round of thier first full contact fight because they thought thier training would siffice. Of course it would have; if the other guy didn't hit back
Let me restate my question...
How many seen people stay up just to save face for 3 minutes and then never to be seen again?

For the statements I made about a false sense of confidence in full armour, I do concede and totally agree with the fact that it does help you get your technique down, but it is just something I disagree with on a personal level.
I get my technique down from the low armour.
And yes, it is still a padded sport version.
(I'm slowly catching up )
Besides, the toughest out there could NOT do live stick bouts on a weekly basis! It takes way too much toll on the human body.

If Vunaks thinking that all fight training should be done with hardwood sticks, he's definately nuts!
And if he thinks that, why does he still have all his teeth?! NO ONE is that good for ever!

Back to the twins; my mistake. I have really got to learn how to do quotes! Running back and forth is a pain!
To answer the question, it could go 2 ways...
One has been allowed to compete and test his skills.
One has not.
Would that mean one has been given the mindset to hold back a little in competiton(like when I got my 1st BB in shotokan,but got my butt kicked in a streetfight because I was taught to train with holding my punches back because of competing) and the other has no idea about holding back for competitons and would go all out since he might have hard contact training on things like heavy bags and....ding,ding!...padded fighters(damn pat. you got me!)
One could hurt you,the other could kill you.
Good question to ponder... if you see where I am comming from.



ok....
I have to ponder a bit more before I say anything else at this point.
Curse you Pat!
You made me think!



Damien

 

So if used correctly the tool can be usefull

And I absolutely agree with you, the sport is just a tool but if you use the tool correctly then it can benefit and enhance certain attributes, but if you think it is the be all and end all then you will miss the whole point, but by saying the sport detracts from the art is a sweeping statement that implies that the tool is not good when in fact it is the person not using the tool that may be at fault, hence I also said to another poster, dont tar everyone with the same brush.

And I say satnd in front of me with the padding on and let me hit you, then tell me it dont hurt and then tell me you dont appreaciate why you have the armour on. But you beleiving pain is the good teacher is a personal choice that does not mean that the armour does not have it's uses.

And I am basing my opinions on my personal expeariances too and I do have lets say a little expeariance in the sport version of the art.

But that is a format that endorses minimal contact with a one point stop and start format, it has it's uses but what we are talking about is a format where they can hit you as hard as they like and keep hitting you in a live manner, no Kia's needed. A totally differnt tool for a totally different attribute.

That is a personal chioce and you are not wrong, but that does not mean that those who prefer the WEKAF format are wrong either, horses for courses as they say or the difference between the hammer and the nail gun if you get my drift.

But what if you are not who you are, what if you are a McDojo instructor who has watched a few DVD's, never been in a real encounter got a room full of gullable students and you use the same approach but with all the wrong applications of the art? Or on the other hand you can take a sports comeptitor and use the same method and swap that 5% for luck and POW you have just trained a good sports fighter who can learn to improve his art becuase of the skills learnt in the arena.

 

This may be true but what is an RBSDist that is any different from a martial artist that is in touch with reality, same beast with a different label, what next: real combat fighter?, street aware self protection instructor? modern day street fighter? traditional scrapper? self preservation society? Differnet labels that sell the same thing. And does that give him the right to critisise someone who uses a differnt tool to get the same job done? We are back on the hammer and the nail gun are we not?

Best regards

Pat

 

I hear you Pat, that's the truth. For the record, ironically I think he's not really in touch with reality in a lot of the opinions he puts forward, and some of his DVD's are complete pap....but like I said, you've got to take The Vu with a pinch of salt. No way can he train regularly full contact with hardwood sticks and armourless to boot. He can advocate it, but that doesn't mean he's doing it.

 

Oh trust me with comments like that I do take him with a pinch of salt, but unfortunetly when someone of his standing makes comments like this something has to be said otherwise people start to beleive it is true, especially for those who are just starting out comments like this could mean they may miss out on things that could improve them as martial artists as a whole just because one person has an opinion on a subject that they have no real expeariance in and that is not right.

Unfortunelty I have strong opinions too, they may not always be right and when proven wrong I learn from them, but what I do is, I tend to think before I speak and I tend to expeariance it before I critisise it.

Just because someone has a high profile individual does not nessisarily mean they are right all the time.

Best regards

Pat

 

One thing that will remain true until the end of time.

 

Ok, I stayed up for a while last night doing a little more research on the Vunak subject.
I watched a very old training dvd last night with Inosanto.
He quoted: " if you wanted to learn stick fighting,grab a stick and a partner and go at it a couple of times a week and you know all there is to know in 18-24 months".
That was the end of the statement. No mention of type of stick or any other equipment.
This is Vunaks Teacher and Respect to him.
It seems to be a line "vagueness" going on here.
Vunak is saying pretty much the same thing if you think about it.
Fight with hardwood sticks and you will master your own stick fighting skills.
You can find logic in both statements and pure insanity in both statements.
My previous statements were a little more narrow sighted than I realised.
I was meaning to say people who concentrate soley on sport are denying themselves and others of the true life of the art.
I will quote another person here (but no name): "I am a PUREST to filipino arts! I always have been and thats all I teach and practice is the true fma".(5th dan mind you) But the problem is; wekaf is ALL he knows.
In retrospect,that is just as lame as saying unless you train with hardwood sticks all the time,you are doing it wrong.
That is a view from both extremes.
And both are right and both are wrong.
Now that I have my head a little more in order, I can say
body armour is much more advantageous in 2 areas.
1- it helps YOU work on your defenses a little more because you can literally fight all day. You are,in a sense,fighting a moving punch bag that hits back.
You get to work on footwork drills at a faster and longer pace and you can cover all 3 ranges.
2- It WILL aid you increasing YOUR power strikes because now,you have to get through all that armour to cause your opponent more pain(which is the point of a streetfight,isn't it?) which will cause to you do so at a more constant speed. If you can hit someone 6-8 times a second with power in armour,take all that armour off; and you stay the same.

Training with hardwood sticks would help work on your defenses more than anything because who the hell wants to get hit with one?!
I think,based on that,in most cases, it would be more defensive than offensive.
Body armour helps in aiding your offenses more than your defenses.

As for Inosantos statement about 18-24 months...
Other than learning how to hit and not be hit, what else do you learn?
And yes, you would learn footwork.
Would you learn grappeling? Punching? Kicking? Disarms?
He didn't mention any of those. JUST stickfighting.
I believe that is a misleading statement about the fma as well.
I think the "Vu" has a tendancy to show through extremism.
Which isn't always reality.
Again, he does have some extremely valid points! I have learned a thing or two from Vunak.
But you don't see me wearing a "Vu" t-shirt

"ding-ding"
Round 4!




Damien
(the artis formerly known as
Bammx2 )

 

The best way to move forward with this particular thread is to figure out how much of the article I can directly quote from. The plan is to send a PM out to Domino and see if he can provide some insight about the legal issues. Let you know how it goes.

 

And I absolutely agree with you, beleiving the sport is the be all and end all then you are not actually doing FMA, you are doing sport stickfighting full stop, but my point is, if you utilise sport stickfighting as a training tool it can be a great way to enhance certain attributes of your FMA which is why you cant just make a blanket statement that cliams the sport FMA detracts from the art as a whole.

Training one to the exclusion of the other is wrong, taking advatage of the attributes that can be learnt from every aspect including the sport can only be a benefit to your over all skils and understanding of the FMA as a whole, even if something is not to your liking does not mean it has no benefit to be gained from it.

There you go, no I think you see what I am getting at and why I object to the blanket statement of Sport Eskrima detracting from the art.

Works both and you can benefit, work one and you can miss out on some very valuable lessons. That is my point.

You may learn about stickfighting, but you will not learn about FMA and you will not really learn about Sport Eskrima either, to really appreaciate the Sport Eskrima versions of the art, you need a good understanding of the art as a whole, that is not to say you can just do Sport Eskrima on it's own and be reasonable successfull at it, I have seen it happen, but I have watched the real classy sport Eskrima champions, they all had one thing in common, a good foundation in the art and that showed in the fighting. I have seen people who soley concentrate on the sport and nothing else and to be honest they look like two kids fighting over a bag of sweets, they are what I call the 'Stick Bashers', there is a difference between a 'Stick Basher' and a 'Stick Fighter', the fighter realises it is a sport but uses it as a tool to learn, the basher beleives it is all he needs and misses out on the bigger picture.

I agree with you, he does have some valid points, but those are usually based on personal expeariance, when he made his comment regarding the sport detracting from the art, how did he come to this conclusion? What expeariance (if any) does he have in the sporting side to FMA to make such a statement? And that is also my point.

Best regards

Pat

 

weird.. i like reading paul and pat in the same vein. they got valid points and at times just that.. points.