This isn't the same video Mr. Martinez posted, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by onpoint, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    At least they're all consistent, Pat. Like the Borg.:rolleyes: I don't know if it's PTK or the people attracted to Gaje--it's like the chicken and the egg debate.

    He agreed with us, but at second glance decided to change position, now he's giving us this "there's more methodos" act. Sounds to me like Gaje's old trick of updating methodologies and technologies.

    It's either there or it's not anymore, it's that simple--he said it himself it's too difficult, people don't practice it anymore.:rolleyes: Occam's razor.

    He's gonna surface again, be cheeky, get cornered, then ask for a "discussion", get cornered again, then hide and accuse us of disrespecting his teacher. And like a cherry on a sundae, he's gonna add he knows what we don't.:cool:
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  2. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Mod warning. Watch the language and personal attacks/nasty little digs at each other please folks. Thank you.
  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    You call people chimps on multiple threads. You have had a general arrogant attitude that no one else knows anything. And have told people they shouldn't talk about a topic brought up on a forum made just for such talk.....

    Methinks you need to look up the definition of civilized conversation.
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    well we are hairless apes are we not ;) hey I don't mind being called Monkey Boy. Been called a lot worse by the less educated. But yes he has a distinct attitude of. I demand respect but I will insult you kind of thing. But is usually the attitude of those that actually can't truthfully answer a question and have no mind of their own. Only the mind of we the sheep say this.
  5. slapstick

    slapstick Valued Member


    Sorry, somehow i didn't get it.

    You are suggesting there is no corto / close range in PT -
    because of one video from Tim Waid?

    Just checked some of the Facebook sites of the PT organisations -
    and there are thousands of pics from PT corto range.
    Seminar pics from this year. From GT and many many other PT instructors.

    Have to re-read this thread now. Seems that i missed something.
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    Do you feel that you are contributing in a positive way towards the image of your organisation?

    If so why?
  7. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    No, I've posted Waid's CQC video from the Philippine Marines on the other thread.

    I'm just asking why there seems to be a lack of (or unpopularity, or decline, god forbid I say lost) corto techniques when inside, or going in.

    Because you kinda get the sense lately, as kalimutan confirmed, that people are forsaking this portion of PTK, with the thought that "real" bladefights don't go corto too often--but as evidenced by those videos, they do and sometimes unexpectedly. I showed Tuhon McGrath's old video, Pat himself confirmed they used to do a lot of close range stuff with the stick.

    I did more checking and here's the closest thing, I could find to their corto techniques, or of what remains of it: [ame=""]Pekiti-Tirsia Kali - Sagang lebo with low-line witiks - YouTube[/ame]
  8. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Yup, when there's too many secrets and myth making, people tend to be slaves to them. And it affects the way you deal with others, virtually & in person.

  9. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Because I'm home caring for a baby and not moderating much. But I will be coming back to this.
  10. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

  11. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    To my knowledge, PTK has not abandoned/minimised/veered away from corto techniques. In fact, there are many PTK practitioners (some of whom have now gone their own way) who show corto blade techniques. Indeed, during my visit to NYC, virtually all of the blade training was in the context of short range or extreme short range engagements (from both a reactionary and pro-active capacity).

    The preferred range of engagement is always to the maximum range of the weapon - this is standard practice if one wishes to mitigate the risk to himself. For example, if i'm using a bolo, i DEFINITELY do not want to get tied up on the inside - especially if i'm fighting multiple armed opponents, it would make more sense to stay on the move, and operate at the maximum range of the weapon (thus minimising my exposure to my opponent's weapons, and the chance of being forced to become static).

    On the other hand, if i am using a short range weapon (such as a karambit), i may need to get up close and personal with my opponent in order to deliver maximum damage. The challenge is that - if i am once again addressing multiple armed opponents - i will need to be able to CREATE viable exit routes from each engagement, as opposed to simply moving through them as i did with the bolo.

    Finally, if edged weapons is you main concern, then you will understand that every second spent in close proximity to your opponent is a second spent receiving horrendous damage. The most talented inside fighters can expect to take a few licks from even the most mediocre of opponents at close range, regardless of how well trained they are or how many dirty tricks they have at their disposal. With this in mind, hit and run is the favoured tactic for edged weapons practitioners.

    One cannot assume so much based on a few choice words from an individual representative of a system ("we don't block" for example! ;)). Equally, we cannot assume so much based on a few choice video clips. If we did, then people would assume that Rapid Arnisers block rattan with their testicles...

    Definitely no counter-offense going on there... :D
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  12. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    I was just sent this video, which is what I was looking for. I was also advised that this is one of Tuhon Tim Waid's instructor in Texas, but

    that said instructor learned first from an earlier Gaje instructor, so I'm wondering if this is all Tim's or some earlier Gaje stuff, that's not too popular these days, with Tim's 1s and 2s, plus footwork.

    And for the survivors of the Kagete 'PTK doesn't block' thread, you'd all be happy to know that sagang means to block and labo is to hack, OR block & hack.

    [ame=""]SegongLabo with Finish.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

    But the point here is that when you bring in the old stuff, PTK starts to look like other FMA, not so authentic or lost anymore. That's the whole point of this thread.;)
  13. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Agree, but you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    100% Agree.

    Priceless. He was dubbed a god at the beginning of the thread, and at the end he's just the one testicle wonder. :D
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  14. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Be careful mate - there's a rumour going around that it was just foreplay. If that's the case, then there's even more reason to fear the man!...
  15. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    With regards throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you do a lot of knife pressure-testing, you'll notice that the only times when it is viable to close against a person with a knife is in the following situations:-

    1. When they fully commit themselves to an attack (if you are reactive, then you often have no choice but to engage at close range. If you are proactive, you close because you've seen an opening).
    2. When they have been stunned (and their movement becomes static and/or predictable).
    3. When they are distracted by something else (for instance, they are in the process of attacking/threatening a third party).

    Notice the examples above relate to states of perception. Any edged-weapon user who knows what they are doing will do everything within their power to prevent the above from occurring. They may even try to force you into one of the above states in order to facilitate an entry for themselves. It is, after all, much better to be the ambusher than the ambushee.

    In a symmetrical situation, where both parties are armed and squaring off with edged weapons, finding an immediately viable entry can be difficult and nigh-on impossible. Perhaps this might explain the emphasis on the more dynamic long-range edged weapon use often displayed by TW in his videos. In an asymmetrical situation with short blades, corto range makes sense. If you are the one with the knife, and your opponent does not have one, then you will want to close in order to make shorter work of him. If you are empty-handed against a knife, then you will want to close (after facilitating a viable entry, of course) because of the limitations of your available weapons (your hands). If, of course, you have a ranged impact weapon, you will want to stay on the move - at maximum range - and destroy the enemy's weapon hand or take their head.

    I'm in no position to comment on whether or not TW has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. However, in the following video, he displays more than just a bit of 1 & 2 w/movement, and i'd even argue that it is in keeping with the combative strategy i've outlined above.

    Just to reiterate, TW has displayed corto-range competency, but he only employs it in a very specific time and place. It has therefore not been lost or discarded at all. It is instead used as a very specific tool to do a very specific job in a very specific context. Which, if one is to assess things purely from a tactical perspective, is the correct way of doing things. To opt to close distance simply for the sake of showcasing some techniques is more "art" than "martial."
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  16. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    hehehe. I'm the god with one testicle. All I can say in my defence and without bragging and being humble. That's one big testicle lol.
  17. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I agree somewhat with this comment. PTK certainly has a lot to answer for with some of its sensationalist language and imagery used in its marketing. However, PTK - to a very limited degree - has a point with the "lost" comment.

    Before i go on with my input though, it must be said that as a Filipino martial historian, my knowledge is criminally sub-par. Perhaps Pat or one of the other oldskoolers can help me with this one.

    I therefore present the following purely as HYPOTHESIS. I am definitely not qualified to be an authority on the matter:

    From what little i know of the development of Filipino martial arts in the 20th century, changing times and a more urban environment appears to have triggered an shift in focus towards more in-fighting, impact weapons, small blades, and even firearm use. Certainly in and after WWII FMAists would have found themselves operating in smaller, more enclosed environments, often with concealed or improvised weapons. FMA was also closely associated with organised criminals: Because of their environment and objectives (involving extortion, robbery, beatings, and assassination - as well as protection from rivals), gangsters would have required more training in the above with its short ballistic movements and close-range emphasis, than the more graceful and long-range movements of the older sword-based systems. Certainly there would have been other factors influencing the development of FMA, but i believe that necessity is the mother of invention. And so the above would feature as a primary reason (if, of course, it is true).

    So yes, it looked like "the old ways" were getting left behind - "lost" even.

    However, PTK is not the only sword/blade-based system being taught today. Ilustrisimo is one of the first ones that comes to mind (thanks to the BCKEAI's annual gatherings, i have been lucky enough to experience the wonderful Shamim Haque - the man is a personification of the grace, flow, and precision i associate with sword-based systems). So to say that PTK is the sole saviour of "the old ways" is incorrect. It is also just as "authentic" as any other martial art from the PIs. In fact, i would say that it is globally taught in a very modern way. From what i have experienced first hand, it seems very modular, task-based, and comprehensive. Again, in my experience, this is not an authentically Filipino way of progressing in a system (which - to my knowledge - involves heavy use of such classic lines as "now you do!" "stop dying all the time" "don't block with face" "no like this (does something completely different to what was originally shown)" and "you're big and you can fight - i make you a black belt right now").

    In conclusion, i might be well off the mark. Hell, i may have even upset a few people (why break the habit of a lifetime eh?). But i reckon that as hypotheses go, it's not bad. Hopefully it'll result in an improved education for me at least ;)

    So, what say you, historians? :)
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Bang on the money. And yes for us westerners many of whom only travel in a once in a life time trip. A lot of the time it's all about the money which is why you have to be stubborn and keep turning up like a bad penny. ;) and even then if you can't understand the Asian extended family first attitude then don't be surprised when you don't get to inherit what they said you will. After all family does come first. If you know what I mean????
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  19. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    "sword-based" system

    I'll agree that there're groups more adept at the corto range, who love to stay in this range. But I would disagree that corto and largo styles are exclusive--or have somehow parted ways.

    I would argue that those two, even three, ranges have always been together, whether pre- or post-anything, whether it's WWII, the Spaniards, etc. Whether you're in Luzon or the Visayas, Northern/Eastern Mindanao, I'm not sure about Moro arts, family or town systems covered everything, these ranges kinda go hand in hand.

    Now, if by lost you mean from blade culture to no more blade culture, that's a more appropriate topic of history... (continued below)

    So we get to the meat and potatoes, ie. swordbased vs. non-swordbased systems. This is a false dichotomy, it's a marketing ploy. I would argue that besides the Illustrimo system, every FMA system is swordbased. The systems that came out of Stockton, CA were swordbased, the systems from Hawaii were swordbased, Cebu, Manila, Laguna, Western Visayas, etc. all those were swordbased.

    During WWII, all these swordbased systems got to play and test their techniques. After the war, when people went back to their daily routine, did they go around fetishizing "the blade"? Nope, they went back to training with rattan sticks, just as they did before the war. Back in the PI everyone kinda understood that rattan sticks were pretty good substitutes for "the blade", that you needn't practice with blades to be familiar with the techniques--sure bring 'em out once in awhile, carry it, sharpen it.

    Remember this whole fetishizing of "the blade" came from one guy only and he was 6 yrs old during WWII.;)
  20. onpoint

    onpoint Valued Member

    Pretty much agreed here.

    I absolutely agree Tim Waid has corto-range competency.

    Your last point is where we differ. Competency in the corto range is where you make your bones as an FMAer, you master this range, everything else is gravy--you don't touch it, you're stuck swinging 1s and 2s, moving around a lot forever. But I would argue that it's your ability to go from outside to inside and execute your inside expertise that really separate you from the crowd.

    The last video that I posted, albeit clumsily executed since these were just students after all, is the essence of what we are doing, that is what they were doing in WWII, enemy's there, engage, close with, dispense, move on. Sure you can chop things up into specific contexts, but at the end of the day you are judged on how well you exploit these ranges, that is FMA.

    And going back to the spirit of this thread, I think if Tim Waid does more of this, he'll be able to take a wider niche of the PTK pie.;)

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