Hi Mitlov Hey who says you have to do it the kyu grade way. Why not stand in free fighting stance whilst doing sanbon, after anouncing the technqiue, the person attacking can take his time doesn't have to go straight away like a white belt they usually announce and attack getting into a rythym of sorts, he can even fien etc etc. Your defense doesn't have to be straight back make use of tai sabaki any direction. Where ever you end up tell the attacker to turn and face you and continue. Then include mae geri etc etc . Maybe progress to jiye ippon and the jiye kumite. There are many ways to skin a cat. If thats not the order of the day at your club, ask one of your buddies to do this before or after the class has finished, i dont see why they would object, can always train in private with a buddy also. The technqiues should be full blooded, ie no holding back, so mouth guard and box and anything else you feel needs to be protected should be used. Oh yeah i forgot to mention once the attacker has completed his part he shouldn't leave his hand out dangling in mid air he should withdraw to guard straight away and that also includes the defender. Then reset for the next one.
The boldfaced phrase is why I don't think of it as "alive" training. Reading what's coming and reacting to whatever that attack is in the moment before it lands is, in my opinion, the most difficult and most important skill in kumite. Even "advanced" gohon/sanbon/kihon ippon kumite doesn't touch on that skill at all. Instead, you know what's coming (and you've undoubtedly worked out how you'll react to it); it's just a question of reading when it's coming. You're just looking for a start of movement; you're no longer trying to interpret that start of movement. By the way, I have done kihon ippon kumite in the manner you describe. That's how we always did things at the second Shotokan dojo I've trained at (due to work and school, I've moved around a lot; first dojo was for 0-3 months of my three years of training; second dojo was for 3-18 months; current dojo is for 18-36 months). That sort of aggressive kihon ippon kumite did teach me how to take a hard hit, did teach me how to use tai sabaki to get off the centerline of a bigger opponent, and did teach me how to use (unrealistic) blocks to stop heavy blows...but it didn't even begin to teach me how to read what was coming. Not to get TOO far off-topic from the issue of blocks, but instead of gohon/sanbon kumite (beginner or advanced), I'd like to see jiyu kumite as the primary form of kumite training starting around, say, 12-24 months (depending on how quickly the student is picking up the material and depending on their inherent athletic/martial ability). As the student advances, the intensity increases from mild to moderate to intense. By jiyu kumite of mild intensity, I mean something like this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkI9SJKv7I8"]YouTube - Goju ryu karate kumite[/ame] Edit: the jiyu kumite at the end of the first Machida DVD is another example of what I would call "mild" jiyu kumite, suitable for anyone with 1-2 years' experience. They're striking lightly and not trying to take each other's heads off; they're connecting lightly and mainly just playing around with range, using different techniques, reacting to the opponent, flowing from technique to technique, etc.
jiyu kumite should be started on the first month at the latest, imo one way to salvage the ippon kumite method (which is the way i like to do it when i do it), is with one predetermined attack, which is not announced, and is thrown from the spot (for example, from kamaete, an oi zuki would be almost a gyaku zuki with a step), at random intervals, many times, with increasing intensity and speed, but always aiming to hit. that way, the one who defends learns to pick up on the cues that signal that specific attack, and learns which of his techniques are most effective against that attacking technique (and trains those that he/she wants to make more effective). sambon kumite i dislike, and gohon i consider marginally useful to train defenses in isolation, but i'd drop it after white belt (i don't remember when exactly, but at some point in my training we just stopped doing it and switched to more normal 2 person drills, iirc)
Even better To get back to karate blocks, I noticed something while going through the first Machida DVD. All of the "blocks" he uses are not the beginning blocks (age uke, gedan barai, soto uke, etc). Instead, they're the blocks that are combined with shuto techniques in the Heian katas. He's a big fan of the downward-pressing block that's combined with a chudan shuto strike in Heian Sandan (I always forget the Japanese term). He also uses a technique that reaches forward and pushes the opponent's guarding or punching hand to the side; it looks more like shuto uke to me than anything else. I don't have any solid thesis at this point; it was just an observation.
Hi John, Sorry, my frame of reference is limited to that of Wado. Actually in my group we don't do sanbon or gohon Kumite we just do Ippon Kumite (not so many steps) [edit] I am not sure what I refer to as Ippon Kumite is the same as Shotokan Ippon kumite. Although we do step back to defend on some, we also move to the sides as well is inward on a many techniques - in all they cover a good range of movement, across a variety of distances. Koyo mention earlier about "Sen" and the three models of timing (go-no-sen, sen-no sen and sensen no sen). Perhaps in our very early developmental stages - your classic "step back jodan age uke" is no more than an graphic exercise in "go-no sen" or defend first then counter - in two parts. Distance becomes important here as you have move yourself far enough out of the way to avoid the attackers punch, whilst being close enough to counter effectively. This was the distance I was referring to. Gary
Sanbon kumite is a good intro to ippon kumite. I actually think both are very good for learning, you just need to incorporate regular sparring in as well. You can also do a different style of sparring where you train under limited techniques. Say if you wanted to emphasize mae geri, then you would only allow punches and mae geri. You can even let the other attack with everything, then you figure out how a mae geri can be used to counter yoko geri, mawashi geri, gyaku tsuki, all of them.
Hi Mitlov I dont really know what level you are at but if you think that jiye kumite is something you can tackle then yes by all means after 3 years of training i think you should be doing it too. Good luck.
If by "level" you mean "rank in Shotokan," it's 5th kyu. If by "level" you mean "experience," it's: * Four years in epee fencing; Colorado state games gold medalist (that's not as fancy as it sounds, but it's worth something) and competed on a national level. The footwork and distancing skills carry over to empty-handed arts more than you'd think. * Four years in Olympic-style taekwondo. Free-sparring from day one. * Two years in taijiquan, including some push-hands drills. * Three years in Shotokan karate. There's not a doubt in my mind that I'm ready to be doing jiyu kumite at this point in my training.
I think you've been a little unlucky, Mitlov, to have ended up in a position of being a green belt with three years training. You've kinda fallen into an unfortunate grade vs experience grey area. In the defence of the karate establishment though, if you set most green belts going at jiyu kumite, it's fairly disastrous. I've watched competitions where they let green belts fight and it's not a pretty sight - very little karate to be seen! One thing that I do think they should introduce at green belt ish level is kyokushin-like kumite. Let people go at it to the torso only (and head kicks if they can make it!). We've done it a few times in class and it's a good way to get people into free sparring without seeing teeth and eyeballs rolling around the floor.
@moosey: well, if people don't let them spar until green belt, of course it's going to be disastrous!
It's a long story that involves a good chunk of bureaucracy and inter-dojo politics that's boring to tell and boring to hear. Oh well. If I actually cared about rank, it would be more problematic I think that's a good way to "get people's feet wet." I also think using some sort of face shield would work. My personal opinion is that free-sparring is going to be a bit of a disaster whenever you first try it, so it's best to start working on it early, but use other means for a while to prevent injury (protective gear or restricted target area).
This quote got me thinking, and made me think that I can share my own experience with Mitlov. Thanks for that Moosey. Mitlov - I've been a gokyu (green belt) in Kyokushin for over 5 years now. Some of the yellow belts I sparred with when I was a yellow belt are now shodan. Life is tough on us guys that work a lot, have families to support, and small organizations where the only way to test is to drive several hours one way to stay a few hours then come all the way back. Sometimes they even want weekends or whole weeks just so you can test. In the grand scheme of belt testing, I guess it sucks to be us. Like you, I also have previous martial arts experience (mostly boxing with a little Goju and some jujutsu). You're at the level where you're thinking like a senpai but stuck training like a kohai. It does suck, no lie about that. In the grand scheme of things, it's skill that's counting for what you're learning and if your skills are improving, then you're on the right track. If you want to compete but they won't let you until you're of a higher rank, then show them you're ready by giving 110% in every drill you can, whether you agree with it or not. You'll only get better from it. Outside of class, read and learn from everything you can, practice everything you like, and keep whatever works. Make friends with guys who want to spar and once a week toss on some gloves in someone's backyard and go at it. Afterwards, grill steaks, drink a few beers, and don't take things personal. This has been my approach, one that lasted me through a yearlong deployment to Iraq. It's good for those tough times when we can't always train like a maniac, like we used to when we were younger (I still remember in the Marines when I would train boxing 3-5 times a week and still go to karate 3 times a week). Life can be a challenge, but sticking with it through the hard times is what really pays off. I usually consider it incredibly cliche to add quotes at the end of a post, but this one is pretty significant to me (and of the three I enjoy, the only non-religious one). It was my mantra at times. "Come ye trials and challenges; come life's big waves, for I am ready!" -Mas Oyama
