The trapping hands myth

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Monkey_Magic, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    Hi Simon,

    For those of us who can’t make the MAP meet in June, please could you explain this? I imagine I’m not the only person curious about this.

    Having trained quite a bit in trapping, I gave up because I could never get it to work for me against a non-JKD person. Also, I had huge doubts how well I could trap under the adrenal stress of a real life situation, given the loss of fine motor skills that involves.

    Also, I’d love to know how you’ve made the straight blast more effective.

    Cheers :)
  2. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've only had very limited JKD exposure (a single seminar), and trapping wasn't really covered that I can recall (it was years ago though, so who knows).

    In my Muay Thai gym I'm taught some techniques that involve pinning or controlling someone's arm in order to open them up for various strikes (as they will be unable to block with that arm). Would you call this 'trapping' in the same sense as the JKD thing?
    Or are they different?

    I'm also unaware of what the myth is.
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'd call that trapping.
    Moving, pinning, grabbing or otherwise obstructing a limb to facilitate or clear a path for your technique or prevent them from performing a technique on you.
    To me the trapping myth involves several things.
    One is that it's a separate "range" of its own (usually it's theoretically somewhere between punching range and elbow/clinch range).
    And the other being that you can perform extended series or sequence of traps (that you see demo'd all the time) in actual combat.
    David Harrison, Van Zandt and Simon like this.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's been an eye opener to me (someone who trained JKD/filipino style trapping in the past and deemed it an overly complex and convoluted solution to a simple problem) how much it was used by old school boxers (Joe Louis for example) and MMA fighters (like Fedor and McGregor). And also how it can be used in the "interview" stage of a social violence situation. In the chaos of a real violent situation however I'm still not convinced.
    Van Zandt likes this.
  5. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The only thing I can add is that in the Muay Thai training I've received, there is only the single trap, we don't move on to other traps from that (at least that I've seen), so no sequences. Also when drilling it we don't hold it long, just a few strikes and then release (presumably in a fight you'd try to hold it as long as you could, but I don't think it is hard to get out of with a little bit of time).
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Good questions and some good answers.

    When I get the right gap in class I'll try and get something filmed.
    Monkey_Magic likes this.
  7. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Exactly! That's all it is.
    A range label which never made sense.It's striking range.That's it."Elbow range" is just a term for a subdivision of punching range.If you can elbow you can hook/uppercut.One doesn't need to be at short range to lop sau an incoming limb.
    That's the main "perceptual problem". That trapping practically requires at least 1 if not more compound traps. If a compound happens that's fine,it's gravy.But one shouldn't look/try for it.
    I don't see why.I've seen untrained (but violent) people in the midst of real violence "moving, pinning, grabbing or otherwise obstructing a limb". Or do you just mean compound trapping? In which case,see gravy!
    David Harrison likes this.
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well you can, I've done it, but only if you're doing it as a response to their movement, just like trapping in general. One of the biggest misconceptions people have about trapping is that you should actively be trying to trap, instead of it being a dynamic response. That's nonsense and a pretty quick way to acquire some bruises.
    David Harrison and El Medico like this.
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I can trap. I was sparring with a top amateur last week and I could successfully trap, chain punch, loads of other fancy stuff. The problem is that I'm good at range control, timing and distance. Anything will work if you have those. People who practice chain punching and trapping rarely have those (considerably more important) attributes. I'd say that chain punching and trapping (in the Wing Chun/JKD sense) is hammering a screw in with a nail. You can do it, but you're always sort of forcing it to work. It leaves you vulnerable to anyone who's actually seen it before. Works once or twice and then never again.
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think in the case of seeing trapping in boxing it was my own preconceptions and limited knowledge of it that meant I didn't see it. Also the increased use of gloves with no thumb means it's not quite as prevelant as it was.
    I had the notion it was punches, head movement, footwork, covering, etc. Watching the work of Youtube analysts (Jack Slack, Lee Wiley, Lawrence Kenshin, BJJ scout, Reznick, Mindsmash and others) has opened my eyes more to the subtleties, variety and nuances of styles in boxing. Before I would have seen a Joe Louis jab and seen a jab. Now I see a Joe Louis jab and see the intrinsic head movement and covering hand trap with the rear hand as he launches it. With Fedor I see the leaping russian hooks/casting punches but with extra understanding I also see the preceding hand trap and "hand fighting" too. I was conditioned to see trapping as the JKD/Kali type stuff where people "hang out" at that range doing 3, 4, 5 different traps in a row with minimal footwork.
    Now I see that trapping can take many forms and not just what has been called "trapping" in the past.
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    To me the word trap is a misnomer - it tends to bring to mind elaborate grabs and locks and the rest. For me a trap is any contact that obstructs my opponents movement and allows me to steal a beat, giving me a free action. That is to say that while the opponent is reacting to the obstruction, I am getting on with my next offensive action. Trapping can lead to gripping, which can lead to locking, but just as often it leads to an improved opportunity to strike or to move. In fact in practical self defence experiences i have frequently used a contact that has restricted the opponents ability to immediately strike at me and gained me the opportunity to make space and give the potential attacker time to realise that maybe i am not the easy target they thought i was and maybe they could reconsider their intentions. Very specifically using a bridge rather than a grab. so it doesn't escalate.

    Note - I have gone with what I have felt was appropriate to the threat at the time. If the threat level had been different my response might have been different. but I can only speak from experience.
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  12. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    The most important thing to remember in trapping, is that you have to learn how your opponent fights, such as to this move they will do this, and so-on. Once you have figured that out, you can trap the person to move the way you need them to move to execute the trap. You of course have to learn what kind of traps you can do, such as locking the arm or legs, these can be learned from techniques from Aikido, Wing Chun, and so-on.
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Seeing as this has popped up again I'd like to add the sublime work of Lomachenko to the list of combat athletes who use trapping in real time.

    That "gloveswipe/hook" is a thing of beauty.
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  14. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    I am not sure if you were showing the video to agree or disagree with my statement to you about trapping, which ever it is, all I can say is that we all have our own ideas or concept of trapping. I do not want to give bad ideas or mislead, if my suggestions are different from what someone has learned elsewhere, then I can just say, try both suggestions, and see which works best for you. The video shows the man putting himself into a trap, what I am stating, is grabbing control of a fight by tricking your opponent into moves that allow you to trap him, when your opponent catches on what you are doing, he will be lost and confused on how to fight you.
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Trapping refers to the use of a part of your body to limit the range of motion of a part of your opponent's body. Smitfire's video was a good example of it being applied at full pace under pressure, something you don't often see from martial arts that have it as a big part of their syllabus, such as Wing Chun.
    axelb and Callen like this.
  16. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    No, many martial arts forms do not practice trapping, the technique sticky hand shows more of what I was expressing, but that same technique can be used in actual fighting. As I stated before, it is a very good way of taking control of a fight, and maintaining control. There are many things that boxing does differently from martial arts, as many forms do things differently, but there are usefulness in everything, at the proper time.
  17. Callen

    Callen New Member

    Are you referring to the Wing Chun drill, chi sau?
  18. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    There are many masters that practice or demonstrates the sticky hand, but look at grandmaster Ip Chun, you will see how in the sticky hand technique, you maneuver your opponents hands so that you can trap him, and then you strike. This same technique can be used in actual fighting, and this can be expanded in so many directions.
  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Don't do this.

    You track your opponent.

    If you manoeuvre your opponent they can track you.
    Grond and Dan Bian like this.
  20. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    Lol, if they can track you, then it is either because you want them to, or you are doing it wrong. Yes, you do track your opponent, you learn how your opponent moves, and how they react to your specific moves.

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