Was the rapier ever used on the battlefield? I seem to have seen movies where it was (though often movies are ridiculously far off the mark in terms of historical accuracy). One that comes to mind would be [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAcrIr84OdQ]Capitan Alatriste[/ame]... which is set during the Eighty Years War and the Spanish Inquistion. One I can remember distinctly from being a kid and watching it many times is the classic [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kD6EaJdcgk]Three Musketeers[/ame] from the '70s... starring Oliver Reed and Michael York in lead rolls. Absolute classic. (absolutely fricken classic) So I'm curious how often a sword like the rapier would come up against heavier weapons on the battlefield? Or was the rapier a sword generally used for dueling and urban fighting than on the actual fields of battle? How did the rapier size up against the armour of the day and what were it's strengths and weaknesses? What would have been the most likely heavier sword for it to come up against on the battle field? and finally... What would be a good place to start exploring rapier swordsmanship? Many years ago I did both foil and epee fencing... but I'm not entirely sure it's the same thing. Books would that would be a good foundation for this style of sword would be much appreciated. Ok... bring it on!!
I beleive it was pretty generally only used in civilian strife, but rapier type weapons were found on the Mary rose along with a vast store of longbows and other weapons of war, so they must have had some useage. In Terry browns book english martial arts, there is a bit he quotes when the english civil war starts, where it says the rapiers were used at first and then put aside - ill find the quote when i find the book again but it is intended to mean that the rapier wasnt found to be useful in war and dsicarded. Look at the spanish and italian rapier masters from the ARMA and the other WMA sites viewable manuals and youll see most cover civilian aspects of combat,some for instance showing use of cloak and rapier and other such things. there are many manuals going about and i think Mark/'langenschwert' will prove usefull to you if you drop him a PM. I think the rapier is a utterly stupid weapon to have in warefare in the firstplace and i cant think of a place where it would be useful outside of small civil conflict,dueling and self defence. But i think the notion that the rapier is more evolved a weapon than earlier weapons is one widely held but verry wrong. Also what i found interesting is the number of cuts you see in classic rapier manuals,normally you assume its always thrusting, but have a look about there are some great ones to download for free on the net. These guys may be a useful start for asking for info http://www.dawnduellists.co.uk/ http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/ - ive seen these guys and they are indeed verry good. http://www.hadesign.co.uk/SRS/index.html Hopefully the sword nuts can help you more than i can,as swordwork isnt my thing really, the linacre school have links to manuals on the site if you have a look.
I've allso heard people say that in the war of the roses, the rapiers were in fashion, and were used in the beginning of the war, but soon the nobility started scrounging through their grandfathers swords from earlier periods; alledgedly because the rapier wasn't very effective on the battlefield. I only have this from hearsay from friends, so as a source, my post isn't worth much. I haven't been doing much rapier myself, but it's fun to speculate on why (if we are to believe hearsay) the rapier isn't effective on a battlefield. IMHO, I think it's because of several factors: :It's too short to compete with polearms :It's too weak to do much half-swording with :It's too heavy/cumbersome compared to it's effectiveness to carry in the field :It's relatively easy to spearhunt, and cannot deliver much damage in close play, rendering it vulnerable against people using closing in-techniques followed up with grappeling/close play.
I *think* that the rapier was strictly a personal urban defense/class symbol sort of thing. I base this only on the fact that in wars after its developement, the saber predominated both on the ground and in mounted warfare. Sabers were issued and used in WWI and the Spanish-American Wars, well after the rapier was commonly known. As far as the other questions.... erm....
Keep in mind that what we term a "rapier" today is a far more exclusive term than was used historically. What ARMA types call a Cut & Thrust sword today might very well have been called a rapier in its day. IIRC, there are some accounts from the time saying that the "rapier" was fine on the battlefield, but I don't think they mean a specialized thrusting weapon. Now, for the "classic" rapier in the modern sense of the word, it is certainly near useless on the battlefield. Most designs lack the stopping power in their cutting aspects. Thrusting certainly is more lethal, but a human being can sometimes fight on after taking lethal thrusts. This is less true with a good stout cut. Hence George Silver and his disdain for the weapon and all that. I study rapier myself, but I'd never take one to a battlefield from the time period. Interestingly enough, the Italians, who invented the darn thing, just called it a "spada" or y'know... sword. Best regards, -Mark
I asked this question to a friend who does English civil war re-enactment. Weather rapiers were used and infact they were but they were different to what you would think a rapier would be mainly because of it's thicker blade making it more useful on the battlefield.
I have heard that officers who didnt expect to actually fight sometimes took a rapier on the field of battle as a status symbol. Not sure if this happened very often, but as others have stated they were not designed as a battlefield sword. As for your moden foil and epee training it is very different to actual rapier fighting. IIRC they are based of the French smallsword which was smaller and lighter than the rapier, thus allowing very different tactics such as parry and ripost. You're not going to find anyone with a living tradition of rapier today so you need to go to a HEMA group who specialises in studying manuals and attempting to recreate the style. If you lookup a person called Oakshott (now dead) on the net, he gives a good grouping of the different types of weapons used at what period of time which should help you with what weapons they would have been up against. The ARMA website also has an article about the myths of the rapier which is a decent intro http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm.
I am taking a pure and simple guess here, but would rapiers originally have been developed to pierce small gaps between plates of armour?
hmm i doubt it, that job would be done much better by half swording and working the point into the gaps, the rapier would be too long to do that with any degree of accuracy id imagine,whereas going at the half sword your almost in grappling range really making it much easier.
There were swords developed for such a thing like Tucks and Estocs, it is possible that they influenced the design of rapiers but this was not their purpose. Rapiers were developed as an urban weapon and people didnt run around using plate armour on the street.
Aye but its purpose isnt to go for gaps in armour, that is the work of half swording and dagger play.
never said it was lol a thin rapier was designed for dueling the thicker broader version was however used in the battlefield
I guess really if you had a rapier and ended up in a situation where you had no choice but to engage someone who had a breast plate or even more plate armor on... then going for the gaps in the armor are really one of the only options.
If the sword has a wider (not thicker) blade ARMA scholars refer to it as a "Cut & Thrust" sword. Some people in other groups call everything under the sun a rapier. The most important thing to remember is that if the blade was wide enough to allow a good cut (ie take your arm off) it was good for war. If the blade is so narrow as to not allow a good cut then it was not good for war.
Well, in a way, you're right, but by the time the rapier emerges, there's actually not that many gaps left. Pretty much everything is covered up by textilearmor, mail, and/or plate. The blade itself might be able to pierce mail+textile, but I doubt the wrist will be able to deliver the thrust-force; unless you halfsworded with the rapier, which I guess could have been done, provided that the blade didn't snap. The idea of weastern armor suits having several gaps that one can aim for is 90% invented by roleplaygamedesigners to invent a reason why a sword rocks for the playing-characters If I by any chanse should stumble into a fight with a guy in armor, and I only had a rapier, I would perhaps try to keep distance and thrust for the gauntlets; there's a quite big chanse to dent a finger or even slide between the shells protecting the fingers, or perhaps get in a lucky strike in the palm where there's only leather due to lack of space
