The meaning of kali

I do not mean Kali is a martial that they called I am talking to the tribes or people ,just like Samurai and their katana. And we are tallking about yhe meaning that we stated :Kalinga means fighter ,Kalagan means Land of the brave and fierce people ,Kaliraya means uplander.I am not the one who used kamot-lihok or nakisakay sa panahon using KALI in our style and those artifacts have been found on the thousand years or more and also mummies found in the mountain Province. And the words Kali means Warriors and we also accept that they are still exist .We do my father got this art I also born in the Philipines and lived almost from Luzon ,Visaya and Mindanao. In regards to Mangyan tribes my father spend his chilhood in Kalapan Mindoro and we have also many nrelatives there. And int mountain province we always been there and meet some of the natives Head-hunter and one of our workers in the logging was been---- MABUHAY KAPATID

 

Ah now I understand, from the way you were writing it sounded as though you were saying something else.

Can you give more details on the artifacts so we can understand more about what you are saying.

Your Brother

Pat

 

Few comments...

A bit confused here. Is it Pat who's alone and surrounded by the "same trees", or is it you who is the "same trees" surrounding Pat? I'm pretty sure I'm not the "same tree" as you are.

You totally got that one wrong. He's already repeated it a million times... Kali is Arnis is Eskrima is FMA is ping-pong is Arnis is Kali is FMA is Eskrima (and just keep on going).

I'm still here!!

And I disagree with you because I can clearly see Pat's proof of his point. He hasn't concluded anything as THE Truth... he has only given his share of clear evidences... which has brought us a couple of steps closer to the possible Truth... but still don't really prove anything... including your own point.

Are these the meanings of the words in Mangyan? If it is, ok. me shut up as i cant speak that dialect. If not... as far as I know... Kalagan I have never heard of but may be rooted from the word Kalag (cebuano), which is soul... which can be related to having a 'brave and fierce' soul. Kalinga (tagalog)... is care. Or it is also the name of a province in the Mountain Province/Cordillera Region. It is also a term for an Igorot tribe, the Isneg, who thrived in the Northern Part of Apayao. And finally, Kaliraya (tagalog), as far as I know is a name of a province in Quezon. This might be of help (from http://www.calsky.de/lexikon/en/txt/q/qu/quezon.php):

History

Originally, what now forms part of Quezon was divided among the provinces of Batangas, Laguna, and Nueva Ecija. The area was first explored by Juan de Salcedo in 1571-1572, during his expedition from Laguna to Camarines provinces.

In 1591, the province was created and called Kaliraya or Kalilayan, after the capital town which later became Unisan, About the middle of the 18th century, the capital was transferred to the town of Tayabas, from which the province got its new name.

Depredation and plunder by the Moros were rampant during the Spanish regime, because they opposed the colonizers especially their efforts to spread Christianity. The destruction of Kalilayan in 1604 by a big fleet of moro pirates caused the inhabitants to transfer to Palsabangon (Pagbilao).

However, even the colonized people grew discontent with the Spaniards over the centuries. The most important event in the history of the province was the Confradia Revolt in 1841, which was led by the famous Lucbano, Apolinario dela Cruz, popularly known as Hermano Pule. The province, under Gen. Miguel Malvar, was also among the earliest to join the Philippine Revolution. The Revolutionary Government took control over the province on August 15, 1898.

The Americanss then came and annexed the Philippines. A civil government was established in the province on March 2, 1901, with Lucena as its capital.

Japanese occupation of the province during World War II began on December 23, 1941, when the Japanese Imperial Army landed in Atimonan. The occupation witnessed the brutal murders of prominent sons of Tayabas. April 4, 1945 was the day the province was liberated as the American army reached Lucena.

After the war, on September 7, 1946, Republic Act No. 14 changed the name Tayabas to Quezon, in honor of Manuel L. Quezon, the Commonwealth president who hailed from Baler, which was one of the province's towns.

In 1951, the northern part of Quezon was made into the sub-province of Aurora (which included Baler). Aurora was the president's wife. In 1979, Aurora was finally separated from Quezon as an independent province.

=== maybe they were called Kalirayans because they're the northerners (luzon)? hence 'uplanders'?

Okay... if this is so... then where did the word Kali in this context originate from? Do we disregard it coming from the Hindus/Srivajayans or not? Has the word 'Kali' been carved on these mummies foreheads? Or what do these mummies have to do with the term Kali in the context that it has been used (your story up north)? So I guess the Hindus reached the northern part of the country (the cordilleras) then and spread Kali the Art there? And do the Ifugaos still use the term Kali then? Do they still practise this art?

Just curious.

Luv
dhay

:Angel:

 

Surely it is time that the MODERATORS stepped in and put a stop to this farse of a thread!!! Let's face it...on another part of the MAP Forum, I was pulled up for suggesting that a guy be more professional when answering a genuine question! Come on MODERATORS...you are not being consistent at all!

 

Yes it would be nice to have the thread reviewed and some things set straight.

Gary

 

:woo:

 

Gary

I noticed your sarcastic dig towards Pat for the America remarks!!!

Surely, this thread is about martial arts from the Philippines...NOT America...or FMA developed in America??? Hmmmmm

 

No Peter, I don't believe it was sarcastic. I believe much of the problem it appears is the fact that most who train in what they call Kali is in America and other countries around the globe,
But if you look at the A Ilustrisimo stuff. It is called Kali Ilustrisimo.

So you have to look at it in all aspects. But it is true Pat seems to like to dig the Americas and so I returned a thought to him.

The thread is over as far as I am concerned, let the posts talk for themselves... Plus the other threads that he and I have crossed over and the troll item is apparant. He is showing his thoughts and I have shown mine. Let them all speak for us, and that is that.

Gary

 

Again many came to America and Europe and showed the arts of the Philippines, and yes I would think more train around the world in FMA than they do in the Islands.

Modern Arnis was a good art that really seemed to set things on fire and as others learned more they then went to other styles and many of the leaders came to America and started to teach world wide.

The company that Mark Wiley works for (Tuttle Pub) has done a lot for FMA and the world has responded.

Now many are doing the same thing and are out there competing for the business that has grown very big. That is good it is a great art and I enjoy it a lot.

FMA is a term I will be using from now on, though I have used it for along time, for I have trained in many of the arts systems and styles. I have found it is all chicken, just different flavors.

Gary

 

So...it could actually be possible that the term "KALI" was really born in the USA, rather than in the Philippines! Maybe even by a creative Master / Grandmaster who wanted a "Unique Selling Point" to differentiate from other forms of the FMA...i.e. If I have a different name and call it the "mother art," then I have something that is unique, sounds old and I can make it appear as if ALL other forms are derived from my glorious art!!! Not a bad "Global Marketing Strategy" is it? Certainly, it could prove to be commercially successful. Who knows the truth...really? Nobody! The truth has probably been lost a few decades ago.

Incidentally, I am a representive of Kali Ilustrisimo in the UK.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

As we have debated and dug for the truth of the name there is a huge possibility that you are right on target. I am not sure if it is the bulls eye but you are in the 8 ring.

I have read that you teach that system, Antonio Diego is very good and I respect him a lot. It appears he enjoys the favorite game other than sticks, which is the chicken.

I could be very happy living that life myself, since I am retired, sitting around watching the eskrimador's in the park's and betting on chickens and eating the great food and basking in the sun on a nice beach. Not all bad for an old guy.

Gary

 

Kalag means soul if you do not have i can call you a people hehe .Kalagan literal meaning land of the people and also they were called Land of the fierce and brave people. And Kalinga means fighter in the Ibanags dialects .Many artifacts has been found in Butuan and Agusan Province. And some in MINDORO AND GALLEONS also found ther which they found some ceramics jar ,gold coins and some katana .Go back tothelinks no. 395 www.apat-na-alon-tribe.com/home.html

 

kalislash.. cool. thanks.

bgile. oh.. so now u do not think that "Kali" is the oldest and the "mother art"? hence you are now calling it FMA?

btw, I also jumped in with the "America" thing sometime in this thread... please burn me too! Not fair that you're giving all credit to Pat. tsk! :cry:

so there we go... bgile finally concedes that the term Kali may not be the 'oldest' and 'mother art' after all... with which argument, i do not know.

back to discussion.

(ps. Peter is THE BIG DADDY of Kali Ilustrisimo in the UK)

Love
dhay

:Angel:

 

Hi, My thoughts for the "mother of all arts" is if you believe in the Goddess it would surly be what is thought.

Kali is used more in America and India, may not be the same or it may be. Ben Largusa thinks so.

And yes to agree with Peter about what he mentions is fairly reasonable.

What does his GM have to say about Kali as in "Kali Ilustrisimo" and why they use it.??? I believe it is explained because of the sword. But Peter could explain it better I'd think.

I believe Floro Villabrille is related to the Ilustrisimo's and also chose the term Kali, then taught it to Ben Largusa. Now Ben Largusa students are saying it is the "Mother Goddess of India, Kali. (Destruction and Creation).

The circle is complete. The pieces are fitting. Or not, depends on what you believe.

Is Arnis a term associated with Doce Pares? It is usually associated with Eskrima is it not?

How about this...
I can hear the conversation now..

I teach Doce Pares. Oh, Escrima. No Arnis, are you spelling Escrima with a "C" or a "K"? I don't know, does it matter? ..Yes because the C is not in the Tagalog alphabet. Oh, but I thought the Spanish were there and a lot of the art comes from them, their sword and dagger.

See it is complicated and very tiring... :bang:

I have used the term FMA for a very long time. This discussion was and is about Kali and we have pretty much worn it out. Along with the other terms that are used in FMA.

Gary

 

"What does his GM have to say about Kali as in "Kali Ilustrisimo" and why they use it.??? I believe it is explained because of the sword. But Peter could explain it better I'd think.

I believe Floro Villabrille is related to the Ilustrisimo's and also chose the term Kali, then taught it to Ben Largusa. Now Ben Largusa students are saying it is the "Mother Goddess of India, Kali. (Destruction and Creation).


I've posted this stuff before, but here's a synopsis -

From Master Rey's 'Warrior Arts of The Philippines' - PG Peter's interview with GM Yuli in 2003 -

*YR: ...This art has been known by several names over the years. During the 1970s, it was known as 'Ilustrado'. Later being known as 'Olistrisimo', a distortion of Olisi meaning stick, and Ilustrisimo - this was, therefore, the stick fighting art of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo. Tony and Christopher (Grandmaster Tony Diego and Master Christopher Ricketts) use the name Kalis Ilustrisimo. Kalis is derived from the Kris sword, so this name denotes the sword art of Antonio Ilustrisimo.

I prefer to use 'Kali Ilustrisimo' which was used in 1984. Kali comes from the words 'Kamot' meaing hand, and 'Lihok meaning motion. Therefore, the name Kali Ilustrisimo, in context, means the 'hand motion of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo"*

From the Bahad Zu'Bu FMA digest, Interview with GM Yuli Romo conducted by PG Mike Blackgrave -

*MB: GM Romo, the world kali is very controversial, some say it is made up and only propagated in the West, what is your take on this ?

GM Romo: Kali as an ancient fighting art is a myth. In America Dan Inosanto propagated the word and myth, and I also rode along with this. It has been a tool to promote the Philippine Martial arts.*

From Tatang's last interview, conducted in 1997 -

AFM: Lets change directions now. In your lifetime, who were the best arnis players you can remember, the very best ones?

GM Illustrisimo: Here in the Philippines, no one would fight me. I had fights in Singapore and in Jakarta with good players. The toughest one was in Singapore. I cut him across the right wrist and won the fight, and $5000. I also fought in Calcutta, and broke that mans right arm.

AFM: Besides yourself, then, here in the Philippines, who were the great ones?

GM Illustrisimo: My father, my grandfather and the brother of my father were all great fighters.

AFM: So you learned from your father and uncles.

GM I: Yes.

AFM: Who was Pedro Cortes? Did you learn anything from him?

GM I: Yes, he was the sparring partner of my father, from Mindanao. His style was much like the Illustrisimo style, same as my father.

AFM: What about some of the famous names everyone has heard about? People like Dizon, Villabrille, Cabales? Did you know them when you were all younger?

GM I: Yes, we were all here in Manila. Villabrille was my cousin.

AFM: Did you teach Cabales anything?

GM I: Yes, but I didnt like his techniques.

AFM: Did you ever fight with Cabales, or the others?

GM I: Yes, we often played, but they wouldnt fight with me for real.

AFM: So you had a reputation even then, when you were a young man. What other fights have you had?

GM I: Yes. No one wanted to fight me. In the early 50s, I had a real fight, not an arranged match, with a man called Doming here on Dock 8. He had a knife and I picked up a short piece of pipe from the ground. He died from a blow to the head with that pipe.

AFM: Ive heard that you have another nickname. Dagohoy, is that correct?

GM I: Yes, it is only a nickname.

Tony Diego: Dagohoy was a famous fighter from the island of Bohol who led the people in an uprising. He was a famous fighter in our history, so people call Tatang this name as well, a name of respect.

AFM: Dan Inosanto is very well-known in martial arts circles. One of his main teachers was John LaCoste. Did you know John LaCoste here before he went to the US?

GM I: No, I didnt know him"

 

Hi,
Interesting.
It is an interview and I have read many of them on various subjects, to say that is the end and answer to all, is also going to be a little suspect. But it is a trifle and many trifle's will make a good arguement.
Thank you.

I have e-mailed Peter and if he wants he can e-mail me back and I will send something.

Gary

 

Got it and have replied. Look forward to receiving the details Gary.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

Its not that hard to find out the truth unless you're one of those trying to proliferate the goal and will of the KKK, i.e. kombat kali korporation.

 

Kalag can also mean nitwit as in "screws not so tight" or someone who is "losing it". Kalagan can mean "to untie".

 

So these things that you do, how are they connected to how GM Largusa's belief cannot be refuted by anyone? If GM Largusa believes it, I won't argue that either.

So... If one persons believes it, if many people believe in it, is that proof that the FMA-Hindu connection it is a historical fact? Is this what you are trying to say Gary? I just want to be clear about it.

Ah... So please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this argument postulate that kali is a new term, with a spirit and meaning that is rooted from the old and ancient terminology, those words such as kalinga, kalagan and kaliraya?

How do the Mangyan tribes, and your experiences with them, fit into your argument?