The karate kihon thread!

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Fish Of Doom, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    sorry. I committed a forum sin. I must repent.

    *gives herself smack in the forehead* Baaaaaad Blade.

    There we go. Now I'll be better.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Different arts call different movements different things. Much like how one kata may be performed in one art is very different from another, or how one technique is executed another one is very different.

    Even the simple chudan tsuki can vary. For example, most of us when we think of chudan tsuki we think of a seiken. The typical boxer's fist, I guess you could call it.

    Some arts though prefer to punch with a vertical fist. We may practice it as tate tsuki, but much like how we train seiken they will train tate almost exclusively.

    Also, whereas most of us train tate tsuki with the same hand formation as a seiken, the thumb can be placed differently.

    You also have the "Okinawan fist" which some use instead of the regular seiken. There's a Shorin Ryu school near me with an excellent instructor who teaches all his students this fist formation.

    See how confusing it can get? And that's with basic techniques. Once you start comparing kata (say, Goju Ryu Sanchin kata and Uechi Ryu Sanchin kata) you can see even bigger differences.
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    that smack needs more kime! :p
  4. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    lol! :p

    and thanks, Kuma. =]

    I know word seiken zuki but didnt know the very same punch its called by other names in different martial arts!


    I only know that when I asked my Kenpo friend once about 'mawashi geri' She had no idea what I was talking about. but when i said 'roundhouse kick' suddenly its like 'Ohyeah!"

    But I didnt even know that was called by other names. I thought it was just mawashi geri.

    I did know now though, though some punch and bow differently than we do. (as I recently found out with the Judo. I kept slipping into our Seiza.)

    I only know shotokan words and moves.
  5. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    When I was searching for definitions/kanji on Suigetsu zuki I came across a site that had different japanese names for different finger placement on the fist in punches....can't find it now.

    In GoJu I've always learned the standard reverse punch as seiken zuki, with different names for tate var. and one knuckle punch (ippon ken and nakadaka ippon ken for first and middle) and, of course, directional (jodan, chudan, gedan, tsuki/zuki)

    Interesting you would bring up Sanchin Kata (GoJu vs Uechi Ryu) I was going to bring up that point as well. I've actually done a little training in Uechi Ryu, and their version of Sanchin...very different indeed. Even the breathing.
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    on the subject of names

    not worth geting hung up on it. most karate technique names (with very few exceptions, afaik) are functional descriptions, not titles to be glorified. which is probably also why they can vary so much. the knuckle fist is "ippon ken"(lit. one [of something] fist, in this case knuckle). "hitosashi" or "hitosashiyubi" ippon ken is with the index (lit. "index"/"index finger" one [of something: point/object/knuckle/etc] fist), and nakadaka ken (lit. convex fist) is with the middle knuckle; hiraken (flat fist) is with the second row of knuckles, etc

    the names for the hand formation are probably just "thumb in", "thumb out", "index flexed", etc, but in japanese :p ftw
  7. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Subject Change:


    We just got a kid in who's been training at another dojo (dojang, actually) and he was never taught snap kicks...just thrusting kicks. Now, I don't know much about TKD, but I'm pretty sure they don't just do thrust and power kicks.

    Anyone else's training curriculum not include snap kicks? He was doing all; side, roundhouse, front kicks this way. The only thing I can think of is this kid is kind of stocky for his age and maybe his old teacher felt he should take advantage of that by focusing on power kicks. He was whatever the TKD equivalent of around 3rd-1st kyu is.
  8. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Muay Thai doesn't. Push kicks are basically thrust kicks, and the round kicks don't snap either.
  9. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    I guess I meant karate-wise.

    I am aware of this, I suppose I should have used congruent language.

    Mine do...rule of thumb (for my training, at least..not saying everyone else has to do it that way) is to bring it back 2x faster that you put it out there. This is the actual kick that got the other teacher and myself thinking. We were trying to get the student to do solo one-step and he kept on driving through with his roundhouse kick. Then we held up a kicking shield to practice some control and see if he could just tap the pad with the instep and retract his foot quickly and he clearly couldn't. Being that he was like a 2nd kyu, or equivalent, in TKD I found that strange and was wondering if anyone else trained like this.
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    fwiw, i always trained both snapping and follow-through mawashi, but the latter was mostly used for physical/technique training (ie combined with ushiro mawashi for balance and posture and stuff like that) and a bit for padwork. the one i do now is kind of a mix (ie i still snap a bit but i tend to aim way further out than where my target is)
    edit: tbh, although i see the logic in the fast hiki ashi method (plus it being good for competition), i don't like it, personally. i was gonna say something else but i forgot what it was :(
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  11. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    YEah, we just wanted to get the kid's speed up...not really doing the hiki ashi thing as a means to an end but to lead into other stuff. In retrospect, he was doing mawashigeri like a thai kick...which was f'ing up his kata and any combo drills where the mawashigeri was followed up with something afterward.

    ushiro mawashi? is that like a hook kick chambered like a mawashi geri or rearward kick?
  12. locust

    locust Like a biblical plague

    Hey Peoples

    I'm going all the way back to the original post technique Jodan age uke

    In my style of Goju ryu when performing this block the hikite arm is actually the arm that performs the the block with an uchi uke then transfering the recived punch/strike to the rising arm.
    After talking with my sensei he explained that most movements in Goju ryu were actually dual movements with dual purposes
    could other Goju practicioners confirm this ??

    Does any other style of Karate do this ???
  13. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Yes, its fundamental to the blocks of karate in general IMO. Of course, you can use an age-uke just as a one handed block, but you can also use it in the more sophisticated way you described (one arm intercepting then passing control to the other hand). All the basic blocks can work like this. And if you think about it, why would the blocks be such complex motions involving 2 arms if this wasn't the case? It just wouldn't make sense.

  14. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I agree with that. A lot of different things you can do with "blocks."
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    [ame=""]YouTube- Kyokushin girl kick Ushiro Mawashi Geri Jodan to face[/ame]
  16. Willsy

    Willsy 'Ello love

    I've always been taught in Goju that the blocks always have more than one block in them, sometimes several and sometimes different purposes.
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

  18. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    A good way to think about it. Cheers, I'll 'steal' that quote.

  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    ok, a new one (and it's a "little" bit of a ramble, thus proving that i shouldn't write after midnight :evil:):

    ****o-ryu - tsuki waza - ura/age zuki (before anyone asks, it's not the same age zuki shotokan uses in enpi)

    basic technique
    ura zuki(inverted thrust): from hikite position, move your forearm forwards more or less horizontally, until it starts to rise naturally (this should be as the arm starts to extend when the elbow leaves contact with the torso), and finish the punch's extension by also extending the wrist slightly, then retract it by bringing the elbow back towards the body.
    age zuki(rising thrust): the same, but starting in an upwards curve until the elbow stops touching the body, then extend in a ~45º angle forwards and upwards.
    if done from a kamae position with hands vertical (ie most regular kamae-te), the forearm is supinated so that the palm faces up on impact, which might lead the fist to make a small outwards curve. this is normal, and happens or not depending on how you move your hips in relation to the punch. another normal deviation is a slight wrist adduction (thumb to forearm), due to the alignment of the punch (more on alignment on the uses section)

    the main actuator muscles for the movement are the anterior deltoid, the latissimus dorsi, the triceps brachii and the wrist extensors. first, the anterior deltoid and triceps start the movement at the same time by moving the arm and keeping the forearm horizontal, respectively, then all the mentioned muscles are contracted explosively on the actual punch. if done with supination from kamae, the whole movement is simultaneous.

    this punch is usually done forwards, not quite perpendicular to the body (due to the hip twist), or to the side, almost parallel to the shoulders, with lateral rotation of the shoulder and adduction of the wrist.

    tl;dr, it's an uppercut along a straight line :evil:

    ura and age zuki are generally short range punches, although they can be used from mid or long range too(but WHY? :p), and are more "shock" type strikes than the normal choku or tate zuki, which are more penetrating. the impact moment is just after the elbow leaves the torso, hitting at the strongest part the triceps' range of motion (although tai sabaki and koshi/gamaku*** provide most of the force), and concentrating the force forwards by the lowering of the shoulder and the extension of the arm and wrist. prime targets for ura zuki are the liver, spleen and hypogastrium (think punching the hara/tanden/dan tien). age zuki goes to the chin, throat, nose; both can go to the solar plexus, tending towards one or the other depending on height difference. one of the strongest ways of applying them is with yori-ashi (shortening your stance and rising, usually into sanchin-dachi), while pulling the opponent at the same time (some versions of saifa show this. seipai shows it while retreating after kicking).

    the wrist extension serves three purposes:

    -the first, which applies to both punches, is counteracting the natural rise of the arm due to the motion of the shoulder (also assisted by the lats as they contract), to focus the movement forwards into the target, as opposed to the more circular trajectories of "normal" uppercuts. ura zuki combines three circular motions (shoulder flexion, elbow and wrist extension) with the tightening of the shoulder joint to strike in a straight line.

    -the second use, which applies to age zuki, is to snap the opponent's head back with the follow through (and possibly hitting him in the throat in the process) if you hit under the chin, or to focus the strike perpendicularly through his face (think seiken pushing into the bridge of the nose, or the philtrum/upper lip area with the fingers breaking the nose).

    -another function of the extension, arguably the main one, is providing proper arm alignment for the punch, since, having the opposite rotation to a choku or tate zuki, or no rotation at all, the fist basically goes upwards and forwards in a straight line (whereas a normal tsuki goes in a small spiral which automatically focuses the blow), which with normal fist alignment would make you bend your wrist on impact. bending the wrist allows the seiken to make good contact and thus prevents this.

    the slight curve created by wrist adduction does the same thing when you strike to the side, as in seienchin and seipai, by re-aligning the fist with the trajectory on which it travels and enforcing good structure. if you have good tai sabaki, it can also be used as a sort of "inverted" hook, by slipping the punch inside someone's guard.

    ***i learned that term less than 8 hours ago :D. it refers to using the midsection, which afaik is basically coordinating hip power and waist power.

    you can see different examples of ura/age zuki in these three kata:

    [ame=""]YouTube- Seienchin ****o Ryu[/ame]

    [ame=""]YouTube- Seipai ****o Ryu[/ame]

    [ame=""]YouTube- Saifa ****o Ryu[/ame]

    dan djurdjevic sensei also has a nice video explaining the age zuki:
    [ame=""]YouTube- Age ura zuki - karate's rising inverted punch[/ame]

    i also filmed myself doing it (seeing how i do it might make my rambling less incoherent), but i'm having problems with the upload, so i'll post it later.
    EDIT: [ame=""]YouTube- ura/age zuki for map[/ame]

    afaik, ura zuki is called ****a zuki in kyokushin (or at least that's what i remember from matsui's videos. kuma?), whereas in shotokan, ura zuki is also used for age zuki (they ARE pretty much the same. *shrug*), while age zuki is a tsuki that starts low and goes upwards, done only in the kata enpi, used as a sort of rising backfist or upper block. do any of the shotokanka want to write a bit about it?

    as a random aside, a very similar way of punching is found in xing-yi quan/hsing-i chuan's zuan chuan and to a lesser degree, heng chuan, as shown here:

    [ame=""]YouTube- Xing Yi Quan ( Hsing-I, 河北形æ„拳 ) 5 Elements and Linking form[/ame]
    [ame=""]YouTube- Luo De Xiu, Xing Yi, Five Elements.[/ame]
    [ame=""]YouTube- Xing Yi Quan: Five element fist training (Beijing)[/ame]
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You're correct, it is ****a tsuki. A very popular and powerful punch in knockdown fighting, and one of my personal favorites. The main target areas are the solar plexus, liver, and floating ribs. I think it's also called an undercut punch by other styles.

    [ame=""]YouTube- Kyokushin Strikes - Seiken ****a Tsuki[/ame]

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