The GOOD Video Thread - No off topic posts allowed

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Fudo-shin, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Why would someone want to punch up to the jaw as a target if down that low? Sorry, that makes no sense to me. I would go for a lower target.

    And why would someone duck THAT low to avoid such a high punch in the first place?
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Isnt that what the Kata called for though Aaradia, on both of your questions?
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Definitely wouldn't put this in the Good video thread. His taijutsu, kime, and zanshin are anything but good. Also, when he tries to demo the technique in a bit more realistic way, he ends up turning his head away and bending at the waist to avoid the punch instead of dropping straight down under it in a way that makes the opponent's awareness go awry for an instant. If he is going to do such movements, he is better off studying boxing and doing it the right way(he didn't bob, weave, or slip well in his demo).

    I really am not a fan of talking and looking around while mid-technique. If you are training your awareness that is one thing, but if you are just trying to show how smooth you are, it really does nothing to help your case(especially if your taijutsu is flawed).

    The idea of this technique is to drop down under an attack and then pop up unexpectedly. You can be picking up a weapon when you sink, attacking his base, or other things(like taking ukemi), but you have to know how to sink down correctly and protectedly or else this is a senseless technique. Sadly, this demo doesn't show such understanding.
  4. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    it was done under some pressure, you wont get picture perfect kata under pressure. Also you mention bobing and weaving and slipping, are those movements called for in the kata?
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If you can't actually apply a technique under pressure, then you shouldn't make videos demonstrating it.

    Surely he'd be better off showing the basic fundamentals under a bit of pressure?
  6. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I don't think you understand. It isn't about trying to have picture perfect kata. The kata is meant to teach certain movements and principles. His demo was lacking all of them. He looked like he was mimicking a guy who'd seen boxing in Rocky and decided to try it out with a guy with some gloves on. There are slipping moves in some kata, not really Shinden Fudo ryu that I can recall though.

    [ame=""]Ishizuka Sensei and Kan Sensei demonstrating Hibari from Shinden FudŠRyū Dakentaijutsu - YouTube[/ame]

    Here's Ishizuka sensei demonstrating it. I learned it a bit differently, but it's a better example of what the kata is trying to accomplish.

    I'd also posit, that by training and teaching the way shown in the first video, not much of the curriculum would work under pressure.
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Watching it again, I can see some of your points.

    When you say, that training and teaching by the way he did in my video, that you wont work under pressure. Can you expand on that please? The reason I included the video, despite its faults, is the mere fact that there was just a small bit of pressure in the video in the first place. So mimic or not, he did his mimicry under some pressure.
  8. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I still think it looked like the slow mo kata he demonstrated first, just a bit uglier and sloppy. Secondly, the first free form attack he received was a low round kick to the thigh. So what does the principals of that kata say for dealing with that specific attack?

    I mean he ducked the punch, came up and attacked, took him down, under some pressure. So either way, he did apply the kata.
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Again, this is the thread for good videos. Having a video of let's say a ROTC group doing a live fire drill although they had no firearms or safety training wouldn't be worthy of praise, more likely concern.

    He isn't demostrating boxing, it it was it was very poor. He also wasn't demonstrating any kata from the Takamatsuden. So, just because there is a small bit of pressure doesn't make it good. He didn't demonstrate good taijutsu, awareness, or technique. Training this way and then doing demos with a tiny bit of pressure doesn't make one effective. He didn't have the skill or composure to deal with the pressure so there isn't much point in posting it.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It wasn't really working under that tiny amount of pressure. I wouldn't really even call that pressure, it was a compliant demo with gloves.

    One big difference between that and the video PR posted was the rising punch. It could actually do some damage the way Ishizuka does it, but not the way it was done in the video you posted. So if he didn't get kicked in the face when he dropped, his attack would be ineffective... so none of it would achieve anything.
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Pr, you say he wasn't demoing any kata from the Takamatsuden. Umm it looked a hell of a lot like the slow mo kata he demoed at the beginning.

    Edit to add. PR. Your video, showing Him Hitting the mat in a bowing sort of pose, is that even martially sound in any style of art or fighting? Hitting the deck in bow looks awfully risky.

    Edit 2. Looking at it again, he does bend at the waist and it kinda looks bad. Look I may have the wrong opinion but, I liked the non sanitized look of it,
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  12. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually, that is a big issue people have with understanding these arts. They think that if it looks kinda like what they saw Hatsumi sensei do, then it is an actual thing(kata in this example) from the ryu. Sadly, that is incorrect. The demo the guy was doing wasn't a good example of the kata in the first place, and his "pressure testing" was just as bad.

    I did mention that I learned it a bit different, the leaning forward is one example. Yes, if done properly, it is viable, but I don't like it compared to keeping more straight. However, the bigger issue is in how you sink. If you sink properly, you can do it that way. If you sink downwards at an angle, it is dangerous no matter what your posture. if you sink straight down and then move forward, it is correct. There are tackles and sinking moves found in Koto ryu, Shinden ryu, and elsewhere, but since most people don't have a good understanding, they look like people trying to copy bad wrestling or MMA. However, if you know how to do these kinds of movements correctly, it will look like good wrestling or MMA.

    Again, for those who aren't familiar with the technique, the idea is not just to drop down and pop up with an attack, but also to attack his base(think of hitting his foot with a rock or something) as you sink down. You can also roll into them or strike with your knee to his foot for example. There are many versions of this technique and applications(including fighting in low visibility-sinking down makes you disappear for an instant).

    [ame=""]Bujinkan Daikomyosai 2006 - Shindenfudo-Ryu Daken Taijutsu - 2 (Ninjutsu) - YouTube[/ame]

    From 6:30 on
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What are you sorry about?

    Utility aside (and I agree, it looks a bit crazy), the huge gulf in mechanics and form between the version kframe posted and the one PR posted is glaringly obvious.
  15. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    The man in your first video did not strike his base. You said that was a more correct version, yet he did not strike the base. He came up with a uppercut strike.

    So regarding my video, the kata he demoed at the beginning wasn't even the right one? What specifically was wrong, the name he used? I mean, his movement aside it looked similar to what your video was doing, faults aside.
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I said that was an option. The way you sink is determined by why you are sinking and what you are trying to accomplish by sinking. One aspect is suddenly dropping under his line of vision and attack. Another is to pick up a weapon, strike his base, or roll into him. The aspect of what you do when you rise up again is different and can be a strike and throw, a jumping attack into him, or any number of things. That is what henka is about.

    However, the guy in the video you posted is just trying to avoid the punch. He doesn't do it in a way that allows him to sink under the attackers line of sight, to pick up a weapon, to attack their base, or anything else. He would eat a knee, kick, or followup attack by doing it in the way he demonstrated. Not good as pressure ramps up. That is the main problem I have. He was sinking like doing a squat in his original version, not sinking in a way that could martially have use as an attack and evasion. Therefore it has nothing to do with the technique as taught in the ryu, even if one might think it looks similar.

    [ame=""]HIBARI NO HENKA - YouTube[/ame]
    Not posting this because I think it's good, but it gives you a better idea of what I meant earlier.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  17. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Pr. In your second video, I actually like the Man in Blues version of it better then Hatsumi sensei's. It appeared to me, that Hatsumi sensei was bending at the waist when he demoed it, as well as he did not say anything about attacking the base but attacking From below.

    Edit, PR their is only a few ways to sink, and squatting is perfectly valid. When I was taught to duck, I was not taught to bend at the waist, nor to drop to the floor either. Not to mention, that your video, he hits the ground, then comes up. How is that not a waste of energy.

    Edit 2. You mention, with out detailing sinking martially. Perhaps you can describe what you mean, as we may be talking about different things.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Again, there are many different versions and principles at play in this technique. If you don't know them or how to do them effectively, you shouldn't make videos about it nor does it do much to discuss it. There are a lot of intricacies that go into making this kind of technique work, as it puts you in a vulnerable position if you do it wrong. The whole idea of sutemi(sacrifice) comes into play as well, and it is related to muto dori. If you don't have a good teacher and/or don't really train these fundamentals deeply, you should stay away from techniques like these.

    ps-I wouldn't look to Hatsumi sensei's videos as a learning guide. If you want to learn the basics, you need to find someone versed in them who has the time and patience to teach you them from the floor up. Hatsumi sensei is on an entire different journey, he is inspirational but not someone who's movements you can just watch and pick up.
  19. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    PR your condescension is pointless. There are only so many ways you can sink, should not be hard to describe it. How is, it that the people you say did it right are bending at their waist and yet you say its correct? Tell me then, what is the correct way to sink? Bending at the waist will open you to eat a knee just as much as squatting will.

    Lastly, shouldn't Hatsumi be doing everything correctly if he is head of the art? Why demo bad sinking?
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oh boy, condescending? I explained what I meant in detail already. If you missed it, you might want to reread my last few posts instead of assuming anybody is trying to put you down. The videos that guy made were pointless, as he doesn't get what the technique is for. I tried to describe some aspects, as well as post videos that discuss some of the finer details. If you feel that you are being talked down to, then it clearly isn't worth the time to respond.

    If you don't understand the technique, how can you discuss it? That isn't being condescending, that is being honest. You post bad videos in the good thread, and often talk when listening would help you learn more. That is fine, but when you get an attitude when people are trying to explain things to you, it makes me question if you really want to learn or are you just trying to stir the pot? I've been more than forthcoming and tried to be helpful in responding to you since you came to this forum, in both posts and PM, but it's not really benefitting me any(and clearly not you either) so this is the last post you'll get from me for awhile.

    Good luck in whatever art you decide to study, nuff said.

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