The first tap...

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by mattt, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Has anyone encountered the phenomenon that is tapping between peers and those below them? It seems that when you are pushing up the ranks certain folk refuse to tap, at risk of injury, until such point that you get them in near death situations consistently- once the first tap is given you agree to be peers and will be more honest with the tap.

    Have you experienced this?
  2. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Only with a few. But IME that sort rationalizes the "loss" to maintain their self-image and disappears once it starts happening regularly. Generally it starts happening regularly when their peers recognize their courtesy (not finishing a heel hook on your teammate, for example) is being taken advantage of and the courtesy disappears.
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I only see it with two types of people:

    1. Famous people
    2. People well entrenched in their rank

    I noticed it with both yesterday and it was interesting, the rolls were both still good, but there were times when they certainly should have tapped but didn't, but it was all in good nature still.
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I let them get on with it. If I've got something locked in and they wont tap, I'll just let it go and call them an idiot (but with less polite language)
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    me too, I will either let it go, or very very slowly amp the pressure up... however due to the slow speed that I increase it they can normally find a way to power through an escape, whereas if I slammed it on it would be dangerous.
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I just let it go, it's no skin off my nose. Doesn't matter is it's white belts, blue belts or purple belts.
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    not quite the same thing.....but.....i think it was my first or second bjj class and a good white belt had gotten me into a pretty vicious two-handed collar choke from inside his guard. i felt that i could get out of it but didn't tap. next thing i remember is looking up. now, i tap quick, but also, i don't get collar-choked from being in someone's guard anymore. so....progress.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sometimes when folks don't tap, it is a good time to work on transitions and keeping a superior position.

    I had an incident early on when rolling with a very nice and humble fellow that was a lot larger than me. I had him in a choke for a long time and I thought I had him, but he was able to hold out with shallow breathing and not tap, I thought he was dieing, so I loosened up and he slipped out. By that time I was in such a bad position that he easily got me in a submission.

    He told me afterwords that he was almost out.

    For me some of my goals in rolling changed. My instructor had told me that a good submission happens in the 60-70% range of motion. The remaining 30% range of motion is used for the break.

    So here I was with this choke, all stretched out fighting for the submission at 90-100% range of motion, with nothing left. Over time I would have got it with a fight, but basically, my technique was not good.

    So if I get into a submission and the opponent is not tapping, I will assess if I'm passed say about the 80% range of motion. If I am, then my technique sucks because I might not have enough range left to make a clean break if I needed to. I find this a good opportunity to work on transitioning to something different.

    I realize this isn't exactly what you all are talking about. Just wanting to say that it isn't all the opponent's fault or them being an idiot (although if they don't tap early on something like a heel hook, maybe they are an idiot), but your own attitude that comes into play.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  9. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    My son who does BJJ has a couple of guys who won't tap. The chief instructor knows it and tells the guys to back off at some point to prevent injuries. Of course the guys who won't tap are 'proud' that no one can beat them.....such is training and personalities I guess.
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    But the point I am getting at is that once the first tap happens, its like its now OK to tap.. but until then it is not. Some sort of unspoken rule... kinda odd.
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Maybe so. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of unspoken rule.

    Sometimes it seems like me and my rolling partner start to take turns. That is kind of odd too.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yep I get that too with certain people when there is a weird relationship- ie one is a little better but it's awkward when one guy always loses...
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    theres always the opposite too, light rolls where you tap to a lessor graded guy, who then goes fast and heavy every time because they now know you can be tapped. And then are slow to tap themselves when the tables are turned.

    BJJ is sometime more a battle of Ego on the mats then is should be.

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