Hmm. It doesn't explain the large number of happy drunks, the large number of sleepy drunks, sad drunks, etc. Nor does it explain the angry people who drink occasionally and it improves their mood and so on. Don't really see the link there at all. Anger is a mental state, not to do with the liver. The kidneys filter the blood. They pass urea to the bladder where it is stored for excretion. They do not control the bladder except in that they fill it up, slowly. When you get a flood of adrenaline non-essential systems are shut down - other systems are fired up to more active levels of functionality. Muscular control over the bladder is not an essential aspect of continued survival, so as a side-effect of the adrenal response (particularly if the bladder is already full) urine can be released. Same with the bowels. Kidneys have nothing to do with this. Actually they begin hyperventilating, trying to super-saturate the blood with oxygen in order to make a break for it more easily - fight or flight response again. What exactly is this energetic level? Is this the electromagnetism again? Emotional states are a result of chemical reactions in the brain in response to certain stimuli. This is why electrodes in the right place in the brain (stimulating the neurons directly, not affecting any electromagnetic field) can trigger emotional states. The nervous system is certainly not an energetic level of the body, it is very much a physical system woven throughout the entire body. Emotions do not originate in the nervous system (other than, obviously, the brain), although triggers for emotional states can do. Admittedly certain chemicals can also affect emotional state, but these again generally act upon the brain. The integrative view would be fine if the treatments were reliable, could be tested, and worked consistently on a statistically significant proportion of believers and skeptics alike. The problem is that they do no such thing, and they are rather pricey treatments. If the treatments did do this, then a fundamental rewrite of scientific medicine would be underway as we speak - since much of the integrative model makes no sense under the current scientific view. If it were a valid view, then the scientific view would not only be examining and testing it, but integrating the findings with current theory (or throwing out current theory and starting over). While there is some debate over the meaning of science (whether it is based on observation, or a process aiming at falsifiable claims) this integrative model does neither of those things. There is no statistically significant evidence in support of the model which does not already fit under existing scientific models, and there is no falsifiable, testable claim put forward.
B41, Re: your interest in TCM/acupuncture; you might find this attempt (written by an acupuncturist) to rationalize some of its concepts interesting. Doesn't provide all the answers, but not a bad effort. http://thehealthyskeptic.org/acupuncture
The fact they are alive is enough to confirm the existence of qi,at least to the Chinese mind.I think you are trying to look for something that is is seperate from body and mind.I used to look for secret training methods and other such things unitl one day I realised that all we have to work with is body,breath and mind and nothing else.I suspect the feelings we associate with qi have always been there and the training method just makes us more aware of them.I think Bob Klein was spot-on with his post.
If we exempt chi for now. Let's look at the procedure that eastern science uses for its scientific method and then apply it to chi. If they don't have a procedure then they cant claim it as science but rather speculation. I am looking for something different from our understanding of body and mind because Black41 has attributed it as such. I understand your point putrid but Black41 is claiming it as something greater than understanding and harmony of yourself.
TBH The Chinese understanding of Chi is identical to my understanding of God. I believe in Pantheism so try to debate this away is going to be impossible. But as this is a debate and Black41 claims Chi as an affect on anatomy and somehow can cause a "no inch punch" is something that interests me to debate on. Bob klein did have the best explanation but it doesn't match Black41's in the slightest.
I'm not familiar with Bob Klein's post, perhaps someone could link to it. Thanks for the link Lieqi fan, I'll check it out. It looks like I got some more studying to do to, to see if I can explain it well enough for others to understand it and then accept it. So I'll be back when I've got more.
The one inch or no inch punch has got nothing to do with qi.Its all down to good body mechanics and intention,This clip is a good example of a large movement that has been compressed. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nO3CtOv_D0&feature=related"]YouTube - Tai ji Fa jing Master Qiao Songmao å–¬æ¾èŒ‚è€å¸« å‹åŠ›‏[/ame] A small movement can still contain the power of a large movement.There is nothing like this in Western sports so its hardly surprising it looks a bit mysterious.The training method is movement coupled with intention,nothing mysterious at all but this combination can lead to the feelings that people call qi. I believe Bob Klein's post was number 26.
Dang! I wish I could see the videos you guys post from Youtube, but being in commie china, they block all the good stuff. A title to the video is helpful then I can search other video sites like LiveLeak.com which is accessible. I'll check out the post.
Black41 said that in his experiences that he believed as "chi" to be: If Black41 really means "chi" is the harmony of body and mind, the understanding of one's capabilities and how to maximise his potential, then yes i can agree but the effects on anatomy e.t.c? The effects on anatomy seems something entirely different. Still though "If we exempt chi for now. Let's look at the procedure that eastern science uses for its scientific method and then apply it to chi. If they don't have a procedure then they cant claim it as science but rather speculation." This might provide an easier way to explain chi rather than looking at it in a western understanding, considering the concept was developed in the east.
I'm beginning to find a lot of similarities between chi and biophotons as they found that biophotons follow meridian like pathways and is spontaneously emitted from all living creatures. I'm reading up on it and finding that maybe there is a way to merge east and west approach to the human system. Since Chinese Medicine works on the energetic level of humans, the way to study it has to be through energetic concepts, western science is able to explain a lot of what takes place in the body as well. So to merge these two together, would be an integrative approach. Under an integrative approach perhaps we can find a greater explanation that encompasses both east and west views. Western medicine works through scientifically documented methods, whereas Eastern medicine approaches it as holistic, treating the whole person - mind, body, and spirit - not just his or her symptoms. In the west we may call it "alternative" but other places would call it "traditional" as it's part of their culture and history. But all in all, all medicine is essentially energy medicine, for energy composes the world. Is anybody else up for researching into biophotons or other areas that may explain it? So far it seems we have some brilliantly talented people in western science, but what about some of you that may have a knack for this kind of thing, explaining the unexplainable
Did you read lieqi fan post on http://thehealthyskeptic.org/acupuncture? It says something completely different about meridians than what you're saying. Lets ignore that for now. Please go over the procedure of eastern science. You seem to be ignoring my every post. So we're not really debating. I'm asking a valid question.
Alright I'm checking it out, it's just that I've been researching into other areas, but was suggesting if people can post a summarized version of what they are finding so I have some ideas that I can reflect off of and will greatly help out for everyone reading the post. I don't intend to ignore concepts presented, I do read through what everybody writes with consideration. But I'll read into thehealthyskeptic, and it's starting to look interesting. Btw any of you guys seen the video "The Living Matrix". Fritz-Albert Popp is featured in it. To see who is all listed: http://www.thelivingmatrixmovie.com/en/participants Perhaps these guys can explain some things too. I'm going to try and order it.
Maybe helpful, maybe a monkey wrench. Let me throw this into the discussion. The question really is, if there is such a thing as chi, how does one perceive it? To begin to perceive and use chi, I teach my students about their attention. How does attention itself, function and how is it used to perceive? First it is important to understand that attention is not the same thing as thinking. Thinking is confining attention to words and ideas. Attention is direct perception, before categorization. The second point is that attention works in two modes. Yang attention reaches out and grabs, like grabbing a bird to see what it is. When you grab the bird, you can't see it. It is covered by the hand. Even if you did see it, it would be immobile and you couldn't tell how it behaved, which is a large part of what it is. Yin attention works by letting it go. It is like letting go of the bird. You can see it and see how it behaves. But you can't control where it goes, let alone hold it for inspection. In chi-gung training (I teach "animal exercise" or what I call "Zookinesis"), you learn to use as much letting go attention as possible (Yin) with just a minimum amount of Yang attention to maintain a connection. The muscular letting go we learn in Tai-chi must also be translated into letting go of the attention as well. You perceive chi in the same way that you let go of a drop of ink in a swirling glass of water. The way the water moves the ink tells you about the water. When you release attention, chi affects it and you feel the chi by the way it affects attention. This is the same with any sense. You perceive sound by how the vibrations of air affect the cilia in the inner ear. You perceive sight by how light energy affects the rod and cone cells of the retina. You must use your very attention like the cilia of the inner ear. When you do push hands, release your attention into the partner and allow it to fill him. You can tell what is going on inside of him by how your attention is affected. But your attention has to be very still and not disrupted by your own thoughts and attitudes. For some people a discussion about attention having qualities and dynamics, is very uncomfortable. They may not even accept the existence of attention, considering it to be the same as thinking. There is a history to why we see things this way, but that is too involved to discuss here. But there is a world of attention dynamics beyond thinking and those dynamics are the key to perceiving chi. This approach has to be taught from the first day of Tai-chi training by a teacher who emphasizes this type of training. This is discussed further in the books, "Movements of Magic - the Spirit of Tai-chi-Chuan" and "Movements of Power - Ancient Secrets of Unleashing Instinctual Vitality" (downloadable from Amazon Kindle).
These Chi Debates go on forever, necro or regurgentating not only here, but all over. Perhaps the better approach is not to state what Chi IS, but what it is NOT
There's no evidence for either, and they violate many laws of physics which would make them vital discoveries to rewrite science if they could actually be tested through experiment? They claim that biophotons are photons emitted in the optical spectrum. They also claim that biophotons are not visible to the human eye - which all light waves emitted in the visible spectrum are by definition. There is no such thing as a 'weak' photon, they have a set energy. Again, I have no interest in explaining until the phenomena can be reliably demonstrated. Putting explanation before demonstration is rather putting the cart before the horse. There is no way to encompass both scientific and mystical views (I would hesitate to refer to them as Eastern and Western, as mysticism is worldwide, as is science). They are mutually incompatible unless mysticism can be empirically tested and demonstrated. Actually information encodes the world - energy and matter are simply different encoding of information. This does not mean that drugs work on an informational level - there are no quantum remedies. As I said, there is no point trying to explain until the phenomena is scientifically tested and demonstrated to occur. As this has not happened, there is no need for an explanation.
Black41, I think you're falling into the trap of chasing after the next scientific breakthrough to explain chi or find what chi really is. Here's a secret - it's just an old foreign word that for all intents and purposes describes energy and energetic process, specific or non specific. Just translate it as a generic word for 'energy' or even specific energy if you want. It doesn't have to be some *new* OR As yet undiscovered, unidentified particular or specific energy at all. This seems to stem out of some misplaced need to prove some archaic model and paradigm from antiquity. This won't work, because it just doesn't work like that.. It was never meant to. A while back people made a big fuss out of ATP being chi for example. It's silly and pointless. "Chi" is just another word for energy - a foreign one. It's also used to describe 'air' for example. Like many words in the world it has a long history and different uses both new and old. The use of words is changable over time both in our language and foreign language. Chi just like the word energy can be used to describe or invoke mysterious energy - crystals being a good example from the English language - this doesn't define the word energy, it is simply one way it is used. Do you think the original characters described some mysterious energy, process or transformation ? Cooking rice - hardly a mystery going on here. Why make this so more difficult and complicated by trying to re invent the wheel. As far as tai chi chuan goes, chi most usefully describes kinesthetic feelings and awereness with the body. There's no great need, certainly as far as tcc practice goes to invoke speculative things like biophotons for example.
Because there are those who desire to make it out far more important than what it really is. Like those "Chi Demos" and "Cultivating Chi Balls", it is really a show of illusion and misleading, not only to the common observer, but far worse for the proponent
No disrespect meant to anyone else, but IMO that was the most useful post in this thread so far, thanks Cloudz
You're right 47MartialMan, I think that is what has ruined it's credibility for a majority of people. It takes a long time to figure out what it really is about. I heard from a translator at a kf school I was going to here in China who told me that he picked up a student from the airport and on the way to the academy, the student asked in all seriousness, "So...can the kung fu masters here really know how to fly?" I mean they show all these crazy kind of things and it's hard to separate it all out, many of them are just magic shows.
