The Cobra Kai of the FMAs, Pekiti Tirsia (Good or Bad?)

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by IgitDako, Jun 24, 2010.

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  1. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    I don't know about you guys but as a new student of Kali, I've been reading plenty of stuff about FMA. I'm seeing a pattern of sorts in the different schools and systems. One group in particular stands out as the most combative, no retreat, no surrender type of mentality, and that is Pekiti-Tirsia.

    I for one think they are a catalyst force for all the little Daniel-sans out there (to use an analogy). By bullying other schools, systems and individuals, they are pushing those to push their art to the next level.

    I thought since this is the least political of all the FMA forums, I thought I'd ask if everyone else agrees that this type of behaviour is OR is not healthy for the Arnis, Eskrima and Kali community in general. Why? or Why not?

    Here's some examples:

  2. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    Personally I like the PTK movement and know several good guy's in it! (who have taught me a few things and I them) I do prefer more of the approach of the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas group but that is just my personal preference. Still PTK has excellent footwork and movement and that is some thing that I strongly believe in.:cool: In this day and age it is pretty hard to bully someone over the internet. Meaning that most people that I know just laugh at that kind of stuff.
  3. blindside

    blindside Valued Member

    Well given that one of my posts is quoted here I think I'll comment (and suggest people to read the entirety of that thread, the excerpt is out of context.)

    And quite frankly, mostly I agree with how aggressive many Pekiti posters come across, and you didn't get at least two other challenges by REALLY prominent PTK members. It is frustrating to me as I would like to discuss PTK with other members but large percentages of them keep getting banned. :D I'm not sure it is actually actively recruited for, but it certainly attracts a certain personality, that said, there are quite a few of us quite sane, quite reasonable Pekiti folks around.

    Is it bad for the FMA "community?" What community are we talking about? Maybe I live out in the hinterlands, but I don't see any sort of cohesive community that could be harmed. I see lots of factionalized styles, lots of styles that have broken up into their own sub-factions after the death of their founder/last major personality, and too much not-really-awesome demonstrations of FMA effectiveness. If you don't like it, ignore it, most of other systems have.

    Oh, and this next bit is so I can show my face at the next instructors meeting:

    "You bastiche! You and me at dawn! The stick is round, the blade is flat! Your choice!

    That is a joke BTW.

  4. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    I think compared to other arts, like Wing Chun, Karate, Kenpo, etc. I really do think that there is a community. Take for example, Brian's comment of knowing and training with PTK practitioners. There is a lot of intermingling, I think. Mostly because of the size of our community.

    I actually like the fact that PTK practioners are like the Cobra Kai, because I think (just from word of mouth) people are going at it more live now, maybe because of the challenges or maybe because they see what Pekiti-Tirsia is doing and they know where to go now.

    Either way, that's why I think their shaking of branches and chest thumpings are very good for the whole of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima.
  5. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned


    My best is "Come to where the flavor is, come to Negros, home of the dogeaters".
  6. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Marlboro Country

    Most Pekiti-Tirsia practioners are either Military or Law Enforcement, that or they train these people, people who actually use this stuff. So I can understand the 'Holier than Thou' attitude, because I guess many of them are in fact 'holier than thou'. And I think, if we were in their shoes, we'd go ballistic too when we hear or read high caliber idiocy stated by some civilian hobbyist/weekend warrior :woo:. Here's an example below (this guy definitely needs to visit Marlboro country):

  7. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    I did some PTK with Simon Burgess last time i was in NY. I found him to be exceptionally humble and polite, and everything he said was relevant and simple. There was no bravado or macho image - indeed it was his ability and attitude that did the talking, and he was a superb and articulate educator. I look forward to training with him the next time i'm there :)

    I think that an issue is that some individuals perceive PTK to be some kind of elite military, blade-weilding "Cobra-Kai" system, and so they join up hoping that they can then take this on as their own identity. Once in, they go overboard on promoting their new-found image, and they somehow think that this makes them part of the same fraternity. When, in fact, all they are conveying is how fickle and self-deluded they are. The more people do this though, the more it perpetuates, until eventually you have a large group of people who are only in it so they can strut around in combats and masturbate over their ever-increasing knife collection and badass militant image.

    Clearly, they have missed the point (no pun intended).

    For me, the value of a combative system lies in its application. Application depends far more on the individual practitioner, than on the system. In addition, the practitioner's ability to adapt and address a range of applications will be down to how the instructor has delivered the material. I wasn't interested in the handful of new techniques i picked up from Simon - i was interested in the good solid principals i walked away with - principals i still practice today. Indeed, my appreciation for combative principals partly comes from the way i'm taught in my own system.

    The "Cobra-Kai" thing that you've described is not only limited to PTK however, and there are plenty of other systems and styles that have a large membership of martial Walter-Mittys: MMA; Krav Maga; Kali; in fact pretty much anything that involves beating the crap out of someone.

    Whether or not the blowhards and bullies are good for a particular system or not is another matter entirely. Whilst it can certainly be argued that these kinds of people are the ones often at the centre of politics or BS-controversy, it can also be argued that controversy courts attention, and in a way, they are advertising it to people that would normally ignore it in favour of the next "be-a-badass-in-3-easy-steps" system.

    The truth of the matter though is that it has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the individual. Most of the top guys (at least nowadays over here) seem quite happy to chill together and exchange knowledge, whether they're touching sticks or having a beer - just look at the BCKAEI. Equally, they're happy to give someone a slap if they deserve it. To those guys, i'd wager that all the Rex-Kwon-Do types taking themselves seriously and trying to **** on each other's chips seems like a bit of light comic relief, and little more. Besides, a sense of humour is essential in this game, is it not? ;)
  8. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    the Open Challenge

    So it's the chicken not the egg? It does seem it's the egg then the chicken in this story. I still think it's because they are mostly military and law enforcement, which if you've met these alpha type personalities, you'd mistake it for blowhard and bullying. But GT Gaje and Tim Waid themselves have issued challenges some specific and some just general. Like the open challenge for any FMA Grandmaster he's offered every year. That is just courageous, in my opinion. No one ever answers that challenge, and by default, he is the top dog. I don't see anyone else doing this in the FMA world. I respect him and all his inner circle for this. It does make people think and question their system or art that they practice--"If my Grandmaster is so sure of all this, why doesn't he answer Pekiti-Tirsia's open challenge?":bang:. The seeds of doubt, push individuals to the truth, it's been said.

  9. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Or as my GM (Danny Guba) puts it - about the GM challenge - "Why do it and risk the ability to feed your family the next day?" The challenge is made in the sure expectation that no one will pick it up, therefore allowing Gaje to "appear" to be the top dog in the FMA. Go to Cebu, mention gajes name. When the GMs stop laughing get some of his background. The system is good because he's taken from so many other excellent systems. The man himself is "a braggart", again a quote from another GM.
    Bill Lowery
  10. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    on Answering the Challenge

    That's kinda like Shaq laughing at Kobe.

    Seriously though in the old days, when people called you out, you came out and answered the call. Because it's about honor, and your reputation. If all the old timers answered every call out with, "Why do it and risk the ability to feed your family the next day?" there wouldn't be any FMA to speak of. Think about that.

    Kobe too is a "braggart". But there is a difference between a braggart with no skill and one who obviously has skill.
  11. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Raise your hand if you're Sure

    But why is he so sure? You want to concentrate on that. 1) He's sure of his system and/or 2) He's sure no other system/school can defeat his system. The open challenge is for GMs and Masters, so it's not only him, he's confident of his art.
  12. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    That's kinda like Shaq laughing at Kobe. <

    Sorry, don't get that reference.

    >Seriously though in the old days, when people called you out, you came out and answered the call. Because it's about honor, and your reputation.<
    Yep the "old days". Not now. The last time I was in Cebu a guy got shot in the head for thieving; not called out for a fist fight; not attacked with sticks or knives; not handed to the police; hollow point into the side of the head. Again as my GM has said, "These arts have taken me around the world, and made me many friends. But if I wanted to hurt you, I'd get a gun and shoot you".
    I don't question Gaje's ability - I have hosted him in his only UK seminar to date - but the other GM's in the RP are not impressed. Indeed I got the impression that some didn't answer the call because it would give someone they don't respect credence he didn't (in they view) deserve.
  13. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    Beat him, then Laugh

    Sorry. NBA reference. Long story.

    I'm talking of an old school FMA challenge match, stick or blade, not a pistol duel. That by the way is another skill, but it's not FMA. Crimes happened in the old days too, but we're talking about challenge matches, the stuff that our beloved FMAs owe their effectiveness to.

    Addendum, not everyone owns a gun. In many parts of the world people do still fight with knives and sticks. I believe the UK had a string of knife attacks, as did China.

    Let's be serious, the other GMs in Cebu would just as readily laugh at other Cebuano Grandmasters too.

    Logically, wouldn't showing up and actually beating these "militant braggarts" do more, than their laughing? Because I'm sure Pekiti-Tersia is laughing at the fact that everyone cowers when said challenge is announced, publicly (that's the key).

    If they're not impressed then beat them, answer the challenge. This would be the simplest way to end all the 'what ifs' and 'maybes'. Correct?
  14. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    In the end it comes down to the man and their attributes not necessarily a system. (not that training does not influence your attributes or that having a system is not good) There have been many practitioners that would not be able to cut it from almost every and all systems out there. I totally respect Pekiti Tirsia practitioners and yet some have lost their matches that have been set up. Does that mean the system is ineffective? Absolutely not. Only that in that moment the practitioner could not take care of business and another person did.

    Just to illustrate the point look at the series FightQuest where Jimmy trained with a Modern Arnis instructor for five days and beat a long time Pekiti trained sergeant in their stick match, lost the knife match and tied the empty hand. The Pekiti guy had a lot more skill in those matches of that there is no doubt but Jimmy's attributes allowed him in a weeks time to have an overall draw in their three matches and win the stick match.


    Now of course this was a match not a duel or a life and death struggle. Still.... In the end each individual and the attributes, mind set and skill set determine the outcome and some days it will just not be your day!

    One thing that I have to say that is very, very cool about Pekiti Tirsia is that they have been accepted into the Filipino military and have created a training program for them. Personally from what I have seen it probably is the best in the world at this time based on the emphasis of blade training in conjunction with the militaries training on firearms. Kudos to the Grand Tuhon for that!!!
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  15. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned

    I agree. It is the man not the system. GM Tom Bisio's story would be a great example here.

    As for that example match, I think the Pekiti-Tirsia guy lost because he was holding back, because it was Pekiti-Tirsia that hosted that show. That was a dog and pony show. And I think, the fact that they allowed a Modern Arnis trained host says a lot about Pekiti-Tirsia's class.
  16. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    No doubt and you could be absolutely right as the show is and was a dog and pony show.
  17. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Let's be serious, the other GMs in Cebu would just as readily laugh at other Cebuano Grandmasters too. <

    Yep, I'd go with that :)

    >Logically, wouldn't showing up and actually beating these "militant braggarts" do more, than their laughing?<
    Or give them credence - look these people must be of some importance, otherwise why fight them at all? There are many cultures which view their importance by the size/importance of their enemies.
    >Because I'm sure Pekiti-Tersia is laughing at the fact that everyone cowers when said challenge is announced, publicly (that's the key).<
    Cowers? Thats a very emotive word to use. It all depends on your perspective. Not bothering to turn up is not cowering, letting the world know that you are not turning up because you are scared, thats cowering.

    >If they're not impressed then beat them, answer the challenge. This would be the simplest way to end all the 'what ifs' and 'maybes'. Correct?< There are no what ifs and maybes other than on forums like this.

  18. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Hi Brian, FQ, good example, Jimmy trained with a MA instructor to fight using FMA. The other guy (apologies I forget his name) who trained with Gaje, was quickly concerned that he was being trained to fail. Most of his training was cardio-vascular/carabao grappling type training, even he realised that he wasn't being trained to fight. His thoughts were he would fail in the fight, thereby making the PT trained military look better.
    And another reference! Dog and pony show?

  19. IgitDako

    IgitDako Banned Banned


    Dog and pony show is an elaborately staged activity, performance, presentation, or event designed to sway or convince people (from a derisive term for a small circus).

    The cardio-vascular/carabao grappling training I didn't see, but sounds fun. But I think GT Gaje was showing (compare and contrast) the Modern Arnis training to the traditional training of the old, or ancient, ways of the Filipino warriors :bang:. But ultimately the show was done to make the hosts look good, hence dog and pony. As oppose to this type of dog and pony, which is just silly, not to mention dangerous :saz::

    [ame=""] [/ame] (Kickass Miracles - Warrior Rituals)
  20. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Yep the chicken blood was very amusing!!! Tourist BS, is what it cam across as.
    As for the Kickass series,, my problem was that Chris Crudelli would show MA tricks (holding back 10-15 people with one arm), then not explain how they were done.
    And yes, that blade technique is one to avoid...on yourself ;-)
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