True, but I would rather establish wrist and elbow control with an arm drag than a full plumb clinch on my opponent. When swimming for the inside arm position, instead of snaking the hand to clinch, use the movement to control the wrist, then two-on-one to an arm drag comes from there. I realize it isn't static and most drills don't show the proper footwork to go with the hand movements because they are done somewhat complacently. A lot of the the head control from the Thai clinch is negated if posture is maintained. Keeping posture is the most important, IME. However, I do have some different ideas about clinching. Almost everyone I spar with has a considerable size and strength advantages on me. When I get a full Thai clinch, I'm not pushing, pulling, or turning really. I'm bringing their shoulders the same level as my shoulders and keeping them there (applying passive pressure on their head using my body weight) while I attack their legs with knees and kicks. When I get them off balanced, I quickly shift my weight to one foot to bring them into a knee or take down, only then do I really turn and only as much as naturally comes to take them down. I get a lot of questions about this, especially the keeping their shoulders at the same height as my shoulders when putting someone in a Thai clinch. So I'm not surprised if there is disagreement on the details. It's just snaking the arms to the inside position. The drill is missing the better footwork to keep posture. IMHO. Countering the Thai clinch is everything opposite of what makes the clinch work. Keep posture, change the level of the shoulders. Control the wrists and engage the elbows. Lift them off the ground. IME. This is why I post negatively about the Thai clinch. Or rather to emphasize it as a temporary position in MMA. Sequence of knee or strike, then apply a Thai plumb clinch. If the opponent is really aggressive and comes at you, they will most likely bend forward, then make them eat some high knees. If the opponent maintains posture, on the other hand, use the clinch to push them away to set up your round kicks and striking combination. Otherwise engage the elbows, go for wrist control, and wrestling clinch to take their backside. I guess, I did get fixated a bit on Thai clinch, but basically, any other kind of clinch in MMA is going to be to try to take their backside, with or without a take down. IMHO.
We all have our favourite techniques but don't you wonder why you don't see the 2 on 1 and he arm drag in mma even though its littered with D1 wrestlers who were drilled that stuff in their sleep for years?, likewise do you wonder if theres a good reason you see the bodylock defence and takedown allot more in Thai than you do in mma?
Ideally, yes. However, I tend not to. The clincher needs to get close, therefore needs to go forward. Essentially walking into the waist lock, I drop one hand down to block any potential knee coming my way. As soon as I'm able, I'll wrap the waist and go (essentially) groin to groin, squeeze the small of the back and and push my head forward to their face. The risks is a short elbow to the head, however their posture (should) be dampening the strength of the strike, also the natural reaction is to hold onto the head as you force them back and essentially take them down. (Its actually a lot simpler in practice)
I have wondered. What I've surmised is that it is situational. I know that is a cop out of an answer, but I do see that an arm drag isn't going to work if the opponent's elbows are kept in. Instead, I do see the first part of the arm drag a lot more in MMA. Basically the pinning of their arm to the side of their body. So I would say the arm drag isn't there but the pin is.
To be fair...if you see it working at the top level and find it working for yourself then all evidence points towards things actually working no matter what the theorys [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POvmZ-uw3OI"]Muay Thai Clinch Beatdown And Knockouts Tribute - YouTube[/ame]
But my point is the arm drag and the 2 on 1 is seen at all levels of wrestling where specifically the elbows are drilled from day 1 to be kept in, first thing you learn in freestyle is elbows in to defend the underhook etc if anything elbows are more out in mma due to the stance and the strikes being thrwon Yet you do not see the move at any level of MMA, if it was a good counter to the plum wouldn’t you see it more often? You say its situational BUT I have yet to see it in MMA, I mean it might have happened once or twice but I cant think of any really good examples of it by anyone, that’s not situational that’s not being used at all Personally I think its because committing two hands to one arm (as you have to in both situations) is tactical mistake in MMA, not to mention because of the nature of MMA arms are not left out in middle distance for you to attack they are retreated quickly. Also you are dealing with being hit so timing, distance and your set ups are all different, for example With the two on one, a classic counter to a single neck tie, you aren’t dealing with strikes so you can afford to set it up in freestyle ie trap the hand, shrug and peel it off, you don’t have the same amount of time in MMA they aren’t hanging off your neck to set up a takedown, they are holding and moving you to hit you Likewise the bodylock and dump is seen a fair bit in traditional Thai, but in MMA as a defence to the plum you hardly see it at all, you do see it more than the 2 on 1 or the arm drag but not as often as in thai why do you think this is? Now personally I feel could be for a number of reasons such as hips being kept back further for fear of level changes and body attacks, the fact you see few round knees being thrown in MMA due to fear of single leg takedowns (round knees require a higher stance and your hips to be closer to your opponent etc) so on and so on All the above mean they aren’t bad techniques but simply not high percentage in a different environment and under different rules, and when I see a coach teach them as high percentage in MMA it makes me wonder exactly what experience they have in that area.
I think looking at techniques as high percentage can be misleading when really it's how you get the technique that needs to be high percentage . You don't choose a technique but rather take the technique that's given to you. A high percentage set up for example will give you the techniques that you want. Arm drags and 2 on 1 grabs share some basic high percentage setups that allow you to take a number of different techniques that are given to you from the set ups. It's the set ups I consider universal whereas the techniques are situational.
Im have a hard time following you here, you specifically mentioned arm drags and two on ones not there setups the actual techniques, then linked a clip showing the arm drag as a specific counter to the plum, because you see MMA clinch as being all about taking the back, now you are saying that’s not what you are talking about you don’t use those specific counters just the set ups And what exactly are the set ups you use and see as high percentage both require committing two hands to one grip in order to use, either pinning the hand around the head to peel it on the 2 on 1 or deflecting the inside of the wrist to feed it to the other hand and past you on the arm drag, that’s the set up for both movements, when do you see anything like that in MMA? When do you see people commit to two hands on a single limb in MMA on a regular basis whilst on their feet? I understand you have different views to most about the plum, I mean you said the following (so you would rather commit both your hands to one of theres, than dominate their head and their centre of gravity?) When in actuality it’s the other way round for nearly every fighter out there, they might well enter the plum of strikes, but they equeally enter it from over unders as well and use the position to set up their strikes and control their opponent, and its not the opponents aggressiveness that bends they over, it’s the leverage you are applying to their posture that does it hence why you push pull lever against the head and move them around Im just trying to understand where your opinions have been formed because honestly at the moment not allot of it is making sense to me
I can see how I'm hard to follow. I believe that setups are learned by practicing techniques. The techniques are the "finishers" but by practicing how to finish, you end up learning how to recognize how to set up the technique. For example, learning how to apply an arm drag counter to a Thai plum clinch starts first with learning to posture up, then engage the elbow, gain the inside position with the arm and at the same time brush one of the opponent's arms off of you. The posture up with brush off is a fundamental that can set up many counters. Many times in sparring, with the brush off, I will use my other hand to hook punch the opponent across their chin. They forget about their hand for moment and this sometimes gives me the arm drag or the pin. I usually end up with the pin and elbow strike to their spleen or liver rather than arm drag. The arm drag is so I can take their back side but I usually attack right down the middle. For self-defense, rather than the hook punch, I recommend the power slap with a cupped hand to the ear. In strict Thai boxing rules, after the brush off, I can just punch or snake my arm and apply a counter clinch on my opponent having gained the dominate inside position. This all is dependent on understanding and getting the brush off working. The majority of the set ups are fundamentals that start with engaging the opponent's elbows. But there is another principle that must be understood, and that is the principle to always stun or unbalance on contact. I mentioned before that the plum should be preceded by a knee or strike to stun the opponent before controlling the head, otherwise it can turn easily into a 50/50 situation with either side winning. The arm drag and 2-on-1 grab must equally be combined with a stun or unbalance on contact. In most cases this is going to be an elbow strike to the ribs, liver, spleen, or solar plexus. It can also be a strike to the solar plexus with the shoulder or a head butt (when allowed). You do not see a lot of this in MMA for a few good reasons. One is that the opponent's are jacked up and tough so the elbow strikes to the body aren't going to be that good against them until much later rounds when they are fatigued and beat up some. The second reason is flow. I think people train arm drag and two-on-one grabs as mostly grappling rather than looking at these as striking on the move. So they incorporate striking and grappling separately instead of integrating them. When you have room to strike you do, otherwise you close up all the space. This is a constant flow, more space you throw in the elbows, then remove the space and grapple, then separate and elbow, then remove the space. All the time securing position. Another reason, IMHO, is that most don't train good elbow strikes to the body and limbs. I think most train elbow strikes to use the arms rather than getting their who body mass behind them because they want speed. (But fluidity can beat speed.) About the only way I can really maybe illustrate where I'm coming from is if you practice plum, arm drag, 2-on-1 etc with a partner in slow motion. When you are tight, there is a constant pressure (like grappling)... however, at any point that there is a hole in your technique, throw a strike or knee or kick. When you do this, do not take the strike that you would normally do, instead take the strike that is closest to the target. For example, apply a plum on your training partner, when you have tight control it is like grappling, however, when the plumb is looser, see what strike is there. I will provide guidance, the strike with the elbow to break their clavicle (collar bone) is there. Of course this is training so don't really break it. I think most will think this is time to throw the knee, but first SEE the strike with the elbow to break the collar bone from a looser plum. There are strikes from arm drag and 2-on-1 if you learn to SEE them and not just assume the basic punches and knees are all that are there. IMHO. I hope this make more sense. edit: the elbow to break the collar bone is illegal in amateur Muay Thai and I'm pretty sure is discouraged at higher levels.
