The Bunkai Thread

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Llamageddon, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Seen a you tube video of tekki bunkai that was done almost like free style sparing. Was really good cant find it again though.
  2. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    Were you thinking of Iain Abernethy's vids?
    [ame=""]Practical Kata Bunkai: Naihanchi / Tekki Shodan Applications - YouTube[/ame]
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    bored again, so here's a dissection of pinan/heian yondan:

    full kata, for reference:
    ****o-ryu version
    shotokan version
    wado-ryu version
    matsubayashi-ryu version (shorin)

    -opening moves:
    -both hands come up and outwards: flinch reaction (inb4 jwt :p), one hand (ideally the rear one) covers the high-line against an attack or grab while the other shoots out to hit the opponent in the head with whatever (forearm, shuto, teisho, s'all the same). follow up with whatever you like (knee, takedown, headbutt, elbows etc).
    -alternatively, against a double handed grab, bridge with shuto to both biceps, twist by lifting the rear hand (can add a knee or headbutt here) and trip over the front leg (ashi barai + pull down and to the outside).
    -a third option is to intercept a high line movement (attack, grab, w/ever) with both hands (rear hand on the shoulder, lead on the crook of the elbow), and use the rear elbow to hit the face, then follow-up at your discretion (i suggest a knee).

    -juji-uke to morote-uke:
    -takedown principle training (no specific set-up): juji-uke: grab opponent side-on, trip over your right thigh with a strong shove to the front (like a crude tai otoshi*); morote-uke: ashi-barai + uppercut/forearm press to throw opponent to the right side.
    -alternatively, use the juji-uke motion to shove the opponent to the left, to create resistance to the other side, then the step to trip him with his own movement.

    -block, kick, elbow:
    -parry high, kick low, pull into elbow strike. self explanatory, specific techniques irrelevant.
    -alternatively, if grabbed from the side for a punch to the back of the head (assuming one sees the punch in time, of course), use the block to push the back of the arm (to foul up the punch) as you twist out of the way and kick, then elbow or hook punch to the kidneys.

    -parry and shuto:
    -relatively self-explanatory: cover the high-line, getting your hands on the inside, then hit.
    -against a double handed grab: left underhook, right hand on the crook of the opponent's left elbow, pull (maybe sneak in a headbutt or knee), strike the head or neck with the right hand.
    -against a left-handed grab and a right punch: pull on the grabbing arm with your right, put your left hand in the way of the punch (if possible, attacking the face), then pull the opponent with the left hand and strike with the right.

    -kick, parry, falling backfist:
    -kick the groin, and if it works, make room with the left hand to be able to hit with the right (backfist to the side of the head, or if the opponent's head is low enough, a downwards elbow)

    -turn, block, kick, two punches:
    -simple and self-explanatory: move off-line, parry, beat the crap out of the other guy.
    -for the shoto version: same thing off a double-handed grab (can sneak in a headbutt here as well)

    -the steps with morote-uke:
    -let's pretend this doesn't exist. at best it's extra training for trip application.

    -grab and knee:
    -do i even need to? :p

    -turn, shuto, step, shuto:
    -pretty straightforwards. press with the rear hand, then strike with the lead, repeat on the other side.
    -alternatively, shuto sequences can be used (supplemented with well-done two person drills) to help train trapping motions, independently of specific applications.

    *[ame=""]Tai Otoshi - YouTube[/ame]
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    You seriously think the opening movement looks anything like a flinch reaction?
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    as done in shotokan (or by a lot of people outside of shotokan, for that matter)? hell no. in application it's what i find most similar in terms of gross body movement, since it features a drop of the body and a raising of both arms to shield the high-line. in fact, one of the possibilities i listed starts with a movement you made us train in december (the one you do with the forearm strike across the shoulder).

    to be honest, i see the move as a moronically truncated version of the more common "hands up and out" move as seen in most variants of passai and kushanku.
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Not convinced. :)

    My point was
    1. The drop is accompanied with a low patting movement rather than a high protective movement. So if there was any flinch implied it is the response to a low level attack - which in real flinches is accompanied by a raise of the body, not a drop.
    2. Compared to the stylised flinches out there, this is a very different movement. Head shield flinches (as opposed to pushing protective movements) use the outside of the arm to protect the head. The position here, to be used for the same purpose, would use the inside of the arm. Upper body flinches move away from the threat, this movement actually moves you in and turns the head towards the direction of arm movement.
    3. Where is the shield? Neither arm in direction of movement, or in finishing position, provides a shield.

    Generally the more authentic/old the version, the further away from the head to the sides the arms are.

    There are so many other flinch and proactive interception based moves in this Kata I find this one less likely. :)
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    "1. The drop is accompanied with a low patting movement rather than a high protective movement. So if there was any flinch implied it is the response to a low level attack - which in real flinches is accompanied by a raise of the body, not a drop."

    only in shotokan ;). also memetic mutation.

    re: point 2: well, i was thinking more using the ulna than the inside of the forearm (but really, whatever connects). also, this pic: has more than one person with the forearms pronated, one hand in front of the other, and the head still facing in the same direction (do remember i'm not working off of the strict kihon because i consider it idiotic :p).

    re: point 3: fair point, i was thinking it more as an interception than a purely defensive move, so i probably horribly misused the term flinch reaction :p (it's what came to mind as the closest description i could give).

    again, though, i'm working off of what i see in terms of how one is moving, not the actual technique one is doing, as the actual technique is dumb, and probably a badly mutated copy of other moves.
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Ref the drop - only in Shotokan - are you sure? Certainly in Shotokan right from the first books.

    Re point 2 that person is extending the arms outward in a protective movement to something coming upwards towards them... look at it in context. :)

    Ref the tech itself, this is why I use it as a rear grab defence.
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    1- no, i mean the low patting movement, not the body drop. in other styles i've always seen it and learned it as an explosive move, although some people like to lower the hands first so they can whip them up, which i personally dislike. i generally see these kinds of things as a "invert the movement first so you don't half-ass it" thing (which is, changing subject for a bit, the only sane way i see to explain the manji-gamae in sochin, for example). the hands have to go up and to the side, so they go down and to the other side first. *shrug*

    2- but i see the context as "something is flying towards your face", from which follows "put your arms in the way of said thing" :p (also if something is coming up towards you, putting your hands up instead of down towards it is rather silly :p)

    3- fair point, i just mention possibilities that occur to me, not necessarily "this is THE app for x movement from y kata" :)
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    What eez zis low patting movement of which you speak?

    I think Fishomon's initial interpretation of a flinch in response to a high attack is plausible. Surely the first move in yondan is just chucking your hands up in front of your face?
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    No, the first movement in Yondan is dropping your hands low as you drop your weight.
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    only in shotokan :p
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Perhaps - but as it is described and shown in old shotokan I suspect it was dropped because other systems didn't know/like the bunkai.

    Edit: I can see a higher version of the same move in wado.
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    which does not mean that it is actually true. while shotokan does keep some affectations of old-style karate (such as the low shuto-barai in kanku-dai), most of its unique material is actually much newer than that of old styles. and given that no other style i've ever seen actively emphasizes the pat-down over the arm raise (nor does the arm raise slowly), and given that ****o-ryu does not do it, when mabuni was renowned for his "encyclopedic knowledge" of kata and bunkai (and in fact taught kata to funakoshi's students, maybe even to funakoshi himself), i'm inclined to doubt it.

    also this:
    [ame=""]Old Heian Yondan shotokan karate kata jka - YouTube[/ame]

    no emphasized patting movement there.
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    The downward movement first is clear there.
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    but not necessarily a separate technique, and not even CLOSE to how people do it nowadays, but rather simply bringing the hands down because you can't bring them up if they're already up. i'd even argue that for the second one he actually brings them more back than down.
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    You can bring them up from the yoi position. Instead the hands are clearly moved first in one direction, then another. :)

    Overall though I would 'buy into' a flinch application if either
    1.the end position was a flinch position or a stylised flinch position
    2. the arm movement direction mimicked a standard flinch reflex.

    To me this movement meets neither of those criteria. It has the wrong orientation around the head and moves the wrong way for the arm orientation it is.
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    technically speaking the movement does not meet any conceivable criteria for any useful defensive technique. i mean, you put your rear hand way up high, with the elbow flared up, completely exposing your solar plexus and liver/spleen, and your front arm in a completely vertical position that does nothing except contribute to leave you liable to fall down if someone sneezes near you :p
  19. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Couldn't that just be a stylisation? If you stick strictly to the performance aspect of the kata, wouldn't any application for the hand raising have to also be applicable when done very slowly?
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Well I do the first move as a muscle format to prevent a full Nelson. I then use the raising (with a slight modification) to move the person behind. Do I do it slowly? In practice, yes, to avoid breaking the partner.

    If I do the exaggerated Shotokan movement it is Sankyo with the horizontal hand and a strike with the vertical. These days I tend to do the 'failed to get Sankyo' version, which is closer in appearance to the Wado/****o arm positions. With that the more horizontal hand is holding a wrist while the more vertical arm makes an elbow strike to the head.

    Overall though I think we need to look carefully at sequences and flow in Kata. If we take Kata (for example Heian Shodan) as sequences then we have something along the lines of: ABCDEFABCDGHEIABCDBJBJBJKABCDEFABCDEIABACEEEKLBMNLBMNLBMNLBMN

    Personally for application I think we should work on being able to take sequences as they stand, or putting new sequences together according to need. So ABCD,ABMN, LBMNK etc...

    So you can have an application of stand alone movements, applications for directly lifted sequences, or applications for partial sequences brought together.

    Is there stylisation in Kata? Yes. Some of it is a result of Japanisation, some of it may be an attempt to hid movements, some is a result of not liking/understanding techniques. But when you get a deliberate move in one direction before another move, I believe the move was there for a combative reason. It might not apply to the succeeding technique though.

    Combative sequencing can cause problems though. The classic example of this is Soto Ude Uke. In the few Kata it occurs the arm is brought back before moving out. This move is very rare, however the technique has found its way into core Kihon because the the last bit, the potential short strike/parry, mimics a common flinch reaction. The issue is that in training students are made to repeat an entire sequence from Kata as if it was part of the same technique, but it has been lifted out of context. Generally speaking the rearward arm movement only has relevance to close quarter stand up grappling and striking.

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