Taiji has nothing to do with fist - that is completely correct. If you were translating taijiquan then you could add the fist part because quan is what translates as fist. No need to get upset - you are just wrong, like you were wrong about the chi part of taiji being the same as chi. Seems to be a pattern here.
Just to clarify should our misgiuded friend still be reading this thread: Tai Ji http://big5.waiyu.org:9001/?build=tai4+ji2&p0=%A4%D3&p500=%B7%A5 Tai Ji Quan http://big5.waiyu.org:9001/?build=tai4+ji2+quan2%0D%0A&p333=%B7%A5&p0=%A4%D3%B7%A5%AE%B1 qi http://big5.waiyu.org:9001/?build=qi4&p0=%AE%F0 Free on-line Chinese-English Dictionary. I have no problem with qi as a term for energy, or jin, or yi, or body mechanics. It's just when people get on a soap box and start ranting that everyone else is an idiot for not thinking as they do that I find offensive. So has our petulant friend been banned for all the insults he insists on giving out?
Actually, it is completely relevant. You implied that the 'Chi' in Tai Chi refers to Chi as in Qi, which it doesn't. As has already been pointed out, the name Taiji Quan translates as 'Infinate Ultimate Fist". This does not relate to Qi, not directly anywho. It refers to the concept of Yin and Yang, which Taiji Quan is based on. Yin is an infinate energy. It is soft, yielding etc. Yang is ultimate energy. It is hard, it has a finite limit. So you could say that the name Taiji Quan could be called Yin Yang Fist. Not a literal translation, but I believe that is what the name is getting at.
Jin does mean power or force, you are correct but it is a specific kind of force best described as elastic or rebounding and is generated by the stretching muscles and to some degree by the compression of joints. The jin in Chansjin includes this elastic concept. I cannot comment on Bagua as I do not train it but Taiji certainly does employ stretch and unstretch. This is the foundation of the internal aspect of the art and if you were taught that the muscles don't stretch then I can see how you would deny the internalists approach.
Also re. the word jin. I always thought of it as meaning "trained force" or even "trained skill".. edit. - in the context of martial arts. oh and that's not force as in star wars
I can't comment on the "similar displays" you talk of but the fact that someone reacts before being pushed is consistent with basic "body mechanics". If you yield effectively to an oncoming push the pushers centre of balance will shift in the opposite direction to stabilise them, the counter-push then joins with this movement and adds to it. In other words the backwards movement of the pusher is initiated by the yielding of the one being pushed. Well it certainly doesn't look the same to me!
Well, I guess I may as well wade in with some bizarre crap of my own. Before I started learning tai chi, I had no idea what it was, no concept, no preconceptions, never seen it, literally nothing. I went to a demo of a school in Singapore and was impressed by their iron shirt stuff, which involved me beating on an old man. By the way, I used to lift loads of weights back then so was quite a bulky looking dude, especially compared to the little Chinese man I was beating, though with no effect. Anyway, I signed up to the school and trained intensively under one of their instructors, then after about two weeks, I was like, man this training is really bizarre i.e. chi gung, "whats the point?" I thought. So I asked the instructor to show me something martial. He asked me to grab bot his wrists and hold as tight as I could, which I did, with a minute movement he launched me upwards about a meter of the ground and I promptly landed on my ass, he then did a similar thing but pushed me backwards, the push felt very soft, but I kept moving backwards unable to catch my balance for about 4-5 meters until I fell on my ass (much the same idiotic way you see in many of these vids). Later on, my instructor gave me a VCD with his teacher doing these demos on more people, it all looked fake, to me and most people I showed it too. But, the fact remains that I experienced it myself and having never seen anything like that before, nor having any preconception on what is going to happen, I reacted in a natural way, i.e. falling on my ass in a bizarre manner. My Singapore instructors teachers are Sim Po Ho and Sim Po Huat, the elder being a lineage disciple of Wu Tu Nan, he in turn a disciple of Wu Jianquan and Yang Shao Hou, so preatty authentic. But, they got loads and loads of weird demos online, including LKJ (which I have never experienced). Do I think they are frauds, nope, they can really do a lot of weird stuff and like the throws mentioned earlier and various hardcore breaking demos and stuff like trucks driven over their belies. Do I think their vids look fake, yes, some do, they dont look normal in any case. However, I cannot doubt my experience. This "The Wondrous World of Chi Power" looks fake to me, but, I cannot say for sure as I have not experienced it myself. Also, perhaps if such a demo as I mentioned earlier was done on me now, maybe I would react differently as I have more root and all that, but I have seen the same thing done to people more skilled than me, so go figure. Anyone want to see some of these demos, check out this dude, he's got 400 + vids up from the people mentioned earlier: http://uk.youtube.com/user/henrytancs
Careful now. Jkzorya will be calling you a "qi-junkie brainwashed disciple" if you talk like this! Interesting story though. I always think we should trust real experience such as this over our prejudices.
But I am a qi-junkie, well I'm more of a yi-junkie nowadays, you know the type that stand around on street corners holding static postures. Na, its cool man, me and Joanna have settled our differences a while ago. Each to their own I reckon, I really don't care too much how anyone else trains, whats important to me, is that I train and not sit on my ass watching garbage on tv. Oh and also that my training allows me to do "the magic" and drone on to my comrades about it at the pub. At the end of the day, forums are all good an well, but its best to meet in person and exchange ideas, concepts, methods, punches, pushes, and all that. Anyone can talk, but not everyone can type coherently or generally make much sense in their posts.
Is there anyone here who believes they can make a non-willing person react like the people in the videos?
I knew you'd say that. What?! Me??! Why - I'd never be so rude as to direct such a comment at any individual. Anyway, as inthespirit has said, we're buddies now
Being non-willing to react a certain way says nothing about how much strength, aggression and resistence they are putting forth against the demonstrator.
That sounds like a supernatural claim to me. Would this be the same psychic ability that allows you to claim that "I know what is possible". You do seem to be certain about a lot of things. Seriously though is there something inaccurate about the claim that yielding can make someone move? Also I'd like to clarify something. Given that you believe Master Huang's demo shown in the video was some kind of fraud does this mean you do not believe he could fight or just that he did something different when he did?
Are you asking is their anyone here with the level of skill demonstrated by a man who at the time had been training for over half a century with some of the most renowned masters of Fujian White Crane and Taiji? Who in the eye's of his Taiji teacher's senior students had surpassed that teacher. Who, on moving to Malaysia was challenged by three senior martial artists sent by the heads of the organisation representing the majority of local schools and soundly beat all three simultaneously? Who, at the age of 60 beat Liao Kuang-Cheng, the Asian champion wrestler in a televised bout without being thrown once? Probably not.
Nothing supernatural about it, I'm just aware of how the process of rationalisation goes. I even wrote a retort in my initial post along the lines of "I'm sure that you will counter this by saying" but I knew you wouldn't say it if I did. I am saying that there is a difference between making a person respond in a certain way for you to exploit (which really isn't all that reliable in the real world - fights are rarely that predictable) and a heavily stylised practice such as push hands as seen in the clip. I don't know about Huang's fighting ability - maybe he could fight well, maybe not so well - the fight mentioned seemed to have some controversy surrounding it, so without at the very least knowing both sides, I'm really not in a position to decide. Regardless of whether he could fight well or not, I believe that demos like the one being discussed discredit him to some degree.
Right. But there's a huge difference in how the wrestler reacted to what was being done to him and in fact a big difference to what Huang had to do to get those reactions. It's difficult for people with no experience of tai chi and it's training methods to be able to see anything but the bizarre in such clips. (CKava doesn't do tai chi) These clips are not 'free pushing' as it were. His students are not faking (in my opinion) but are allowing themselves to 'go with it' somewhat.. To me it is understandable and clips like this should be looked at and understood within their own framework. The framework is to some degree manufactured. Which is why it looks the way it does. This is to take nothing away from Huangs ability. FWIW I'm with you in that he was as you say above. That's just how i see it.. Much like I think of Ma Yueh Langs clips that are similar. I think he had great skills, very accomplished. But they wouldn't look like that when applied 'for real' .. When you mix high skill level with semi co operative work against low skill level, this is what you end up with I think. Especially as they are students (of his)and in an environment of learning (from him) rather than challenging. regards
I think this might just be a fair appraisal, if a little overly charitable (regarding Huang's clip only). But this next comment is just the same old elitist "internal arts" dodging - sorry, CH, but I think it is: I do Tai Chi and have trained with some good people - even people who others refer to as "Masters" and I've seen some teachers training with people from other styles with more mundane rationales and I'm sorry, but when push comes to shove, no matter what people say, those who adhere to the IMA methodology are not necessarily any better than those who don't and this shows that there is nothing special about the training methodology apart from that it evidently takes a bit longer to get any good. But it ISN'T the case that a martial artist cannot progress from clumsy to refined force, first developing strength and power like any other martial artist and then refining it. Can we not just accept once and for all that different training methodologies have different pros and cons and that no one has magical powers at the end of the day. Surely I'm not the only one who gets sick of videos of so-called Masters and Grandmasters demonstrating stuff that is not indicative of anything much apart from gullibility, silliness and sycophancy. Propagators of such stuff are enemies of reason.
About that so called elitist comment. You are reading it wrong. With your agenda as usual I may add. Just read your impulsive and ridiculous response to me posting a simple bagua training clip the other day! I was just pointing out that someone who has no experience with any tai chi push hands co operative, semi or non co operative will only see something bizarre in these clips. They will look completely fake for instance. Wheras me or you will see where there is skill shown even if there is compliance, or 'following a formula' going on. You need to dial it down because I'm not an 'IMA elitist' at all and take offence at being called one (even in a round about way) by you over a pretty innocuous comment that has it's own context. ie. trying to get something across (hopefully a balanced view) to somone like Ckava who has no experience or knowledge of push hands/ tai chi practices. On top of that for all your own faults you have the front to bandy accusations at others willy nilly. <Removed> When will you get over this crusade of yours and give it a damn rest!
