Fair point. I was working on the assumption that most of my audience would be used to seeing bunkai for straight punches at an even longer range and only seeing uke techniques as 'blocks'. Look forward to reading something from you if you have the time Mike.
Understood, and I appreciate it can be a difficult balance producing something that visually gets the information across whilst retaining the essence of the technique. Time's the issue alright! I'll do what I can. Mike
I think this is what you were referring to Mitch, from Ohtsuka's Kushanku, about 56 sec mark, the head is tucked in as the turn is made after the nukite. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbOxEVrne8U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbOxEVrne8U[/ame]
Thanks ArtherKing, I don't think that's the actual one I was thinking of but it's very close indeed! That one shows it more as the head tucked in as you say, ducking under an arm for a throw/rib strike perhaps? The one I saw, at least in my memory, showed a move more like a forward head but, though I could be mistaken. What is the take of the Wado guys on the bunkai for it? Mitch The shuto looks very different in that to the version in JWT's, is that a Wado vs Shotokan thing, or something that has changed over time, or am I misreading it completely?
Kaisetsu here at 2:00 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foEihigVlbM&feature=player_embedded#"]YouTube[/ame]! Gary
Wado-ryu Shuto-uke is performed to Jodan in kata. I don't know whether it was Funakoshi Gigo that modified his fathers Kata from Jodoan to chudan or whether it was Otsuka's modification (the other way round), but he (Otsuka) mentions in his book that it is very deliberately practiced to Jodan - because it is harder. Gary
More than that, the rear hand doesn't seem to pull back in the same way, more moves forward and upwards? Mitch
Are we still talking about shuto-uke here or are you referring to the rotating movement following the nukite?
The shuto uke. In JWT's vid the rear hand stays where it is or moves slightly backwards as the front hand moves out. I think it is already in the upset (palm upwards) postion as far as I can see. In the Wado video the rear hand seems to start back by the hip and palm down, before travelling forward and twisting to end palm upwards. Does that make sense? Mitch
This one may display it better. It could be the different preparation/hikite in wado compared to shotokan? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIKP1zK94sY"]PINAN SHODAN - YouTube[/ame]
I think you're right and it's the preparation/hikite that's different. In this later video you've posted it actually looks much more like the version in JWT's video, rather than how Otsuka does it in the video earlier on. Perhaps it's a variation over time? Mitch
Probably more to do with the fact that he was getting on a bit when those vids were shot. Hakosihi Katsumi (the guy in the second vid) was one of his early students (and he's in his eighties now (at least)) so maybe the movements are less obvious, smaller and more discrete as these guys slow down and adapt, but the movement is still there.
Here are screenshots of the appropriate moments to try and make it easier for us, sorry, my lack of traditional karate experience makes it difficult sometimes. The first shows Otsuka's preparation position. On the rear hand the palm is downwards and trailing behind him. It twists to the palm upwards position and travels forward as he delivers the move. The second shows Nonomaya. His hand are up and forwards with the palm of the rear hand already palm up, his arm pulls slightly backwards from there. Unless what I'm looking at are actually different movements? It's entirely posssible as I've never done a traditional karate kata, all my kata experience was Enshin. Mitch
Is your thing about the hikite? It's kinda irrelevant from a Wado perspective. It’s not really what your arms / hands are doing.
Yes, I just wondered why they began the movement in a different place and completed it differently with the rear arm. If there's no explanation because there's no relevance fair enough, I suppose I just then wonder why change it? Mitch
Mitch, Wado is a comparatively new art that has influences from Okinawan karate and Jujutsu (as Wikipedia says). Fact is, Wado emerged in the mid 1930's but carried on evolving throughout Otsuka's life until his death in the 80's -That's a fair amount of time to shift stuff around. Factor in the "shipping out" of early instructors like Suzuki sensei - when Wado was still quite young - and you have a Wado 1.1 version. Whereas, some of his later students were wado 1.5 versions. Point is - the principles remain intact.
Therein lies the beauty of differences between the styles. I think most Shotokan guys would see the foot and bodywork as elements that add or detract from the power and potential applications of the technique, but of key importance is what your arms and hands are doing. Within the last two hours I've critiqued a student for ducking under haymakers without covering his head with his arms as he did so. I'm more prudent. :Angel: For me, and I recognise it is an individual view, the extension of the hikite hand prior to its retraction is a key part of what I consider to be the primary application of the Uke techniques.
I first learned shuto in Wado-Ryu, where both arms chambered up and back (front hand comes to the opposite shoulder/ear, palm up; rear hand raised behind the shoulder, palm down). Then both hands move across the body to the end position of the technique. This is in contrast to the Shotokan version where the rear arm is extended in front of the body for the chamber, then retracted to the end position. So in Wado (as I learned it) the rear arm augments the movement of the lead arm. In Shotokan the rear arm works in opposition to the lead arm. This to me is the important difference. There are I think variations to the Wado version in different kata, specifically regarding the detail of the chamber depending on the position the hands start in. And as Gary pointed out, Wado as I experienced was apparently not the same as the way Ohtsuka was practising towards the end of his life. Okinawan versions, as far as I've experienced, are more akin to the Shotokan version (ie. hands working in opposition). The hips can rotate in the same direction as the lead arm, or in the opposite direction, depending on the circumstances. I think in both Wado & Shotokan the hips work in opposition to the lead arm? The whole jodan/chudan (high/mid section) thing is a Japanese addition to the technique IMO. I think in the older versions the lead hand should end up at about shoulder height in solo practice. In application it ends up at whatever height it needs to. Mike
Not often I agree with the Shotokan guys:woo: but on this occasion I must. While the lower body may contact the opponent and perform some 'hands on' ('legs on'?) function, its what the arms are doing that makes it shuto IMO. Mike
To be clear, my comment with reference to the arms being irrelevant was in response to Mitch’s observation about the hikite arm and how the directions (in relation to the blocking arm) differed between the two vids. What is more important in the practice of Shuto uke in Wado ryu (kihon and Kata) is the fact that the trunk of the body rotates in the opposite direction to that of the lead arm. You can do this with the back hand travelling in the same direction as the front hand or with it travelling away from it. Like Mike, when I first started training in Wado the non blocking arm prepared to the side / backward slightly (blocking hand prepares to opposite side of head), so as the non blocking arm come to the side it travels in the same direction as the front arm. What Hokoishi demonstrates is more akin to how the technique is taught today as part of our Kihon (in the Wadokai at least). The non blocking arm prepares in front and withdraws in the opposite direction to the blocking hand. The kaisetsu of the hikite is an otoshi uke (or at least that is what I teach). Point is the “double moment” of the hips to blocking arm rotation remains intact. Where and when exactly the changes came about – I don’t know, but to my way of thinking, the way we do it know is easier for a student to combine the counter directional pull of the hand with the counter rotation of the body. I think it also makes more combative sense as it acts as a cover as you perform irimi. Gary
