[Tang Soo Do] Shift from Shotokan to TSD

I have a friend (really, he's a friend and I am not talking about myself) who is interested in transitioning from Shotokan to TSD. He feels that he would have a better support structure for the growth of his martial art and future dojang if he made this transition. He has been working out with me for about a year and his style is becoming more Korean with every passing week.

Currently, he is a 4th Dan in Shotokan. What are some things that he should do/watch out for. Right now the main concern he has is order of the color belts.

Thanks for your advice,

 

It shouldn't be a hard transition, as the two styles are similar. As for the colored belts, every school/organization is different. A common progression might be white, green, red, black/midnight blue. It depends on taste and what kind of material is taught at each Gup (non-black belt) level.

 

Hi Patrick. My only martial art is TSD, but to get extra practice time I visit a shotokan karate class and do my versions of the hyungs while they do their kata. It is facinating to note the small collection of minor differences that are there. [Not to mention scarey to see all the tiny kids with red belts. It turns out to be their 2nd graded belt (8th Kyu?) where as it is our last colour before black belt ]

I'll guess that you know the stances are not as long or as deep as the karate ones, but since my faults are not making the stances definite enough then he will be approaching it from the right side

I'm not sure about the Dan levels of karate, but I have not seen any form of 'soft blocking' in the classes. The karate I've seen has all been very 'hard', and at 4th Dan he will be working against a number of years of training. If he looks at the softer stuff as items to add to his toolbox (rather than his stuff being 'wrong') then he should do OK.

The 'joint locking' techniques may well be new to him. I've seen a few takedowns in the shotokan class, but not much of a follow up.

As long as he gets a good teacher who understands what is already known and helps him 'convert', then he will find he is a long way into TSD already but with some facinating extra items to learn. Pass him our best wishes and good luck

Tang Soo!!

 

I made the same shift I dont think he will have a problem the Hyungs or Kata or so close to being the same its not funny . The hardest thing for me was understanding the count and the class terms that are used . I think that will be the hards thing to convert to , being a 4th Dan he already knows how to throw a punch and a kick lol . Just make it fun Tangsoo!!! Here is my link i have the count in korean, and a list and some class term that you can down load and listen to it will help . www.geocities.com/wkeith30/TKKARATE.html

 

Order of the color belt shouldn't be too much of a concern. Why a master in Shotokan is worried about that, I can't seem to fathom. Anyway, I dunno how your Shotokan is structured, but TSD's main difference is execution of techniques with hip.

For example, most Shotokan down blocks in front stance end with the shoulders square. Well in most TSD, all movements are done with the hip - so in this case, not only does the hip torque from side to side, but also thrusts forward with the front stance so that the shoulders as a result end up not square, but shifted more as the hip drives the motion.

Your friend will definitely see it in the kicks. From what I've seen of Shotokan, for example, a side kick is done with little torquing of the back foot. But to fully utilize the hip in TSD, the base foot will turn a full 180 degrees so that the hip can fully rotate over so that the knee of the side kicking leg is almost starting to point to the ground (as opposed to mainstream karate where the knee points in a vector perpendicular to the kicking leg).

Why is a 4th Dan Shotokan want to train in TSD exactly? Wouldn't he be opening a school and spreading his art by now?

 

Any regrets?

 

He is in a temporary situation and will be moving in about 3 years. Instead of getting stale or opening a temporary dojo that he would have to be closed, he came in to work with me. He has been with me for about a year now, learning the ropes on how to manage and open a dojang. In that time, he has seen how I do things and has considered the shift.

 

No sir not at all now iam able to see both sides as diff. arts and unlike some of the other students iam able to mix the two and believe me when it comes to sparing it helps. I am able to confuse my opponent .

 

Yep point taken, but then again that's why I wrote "most Shotokan" and "From the Shotokan I've seen." Many Okinawan and Chinese styles do the same non-square hip thing, from what I've seen at open karate tourneys and such Japanese styles tended to have hips and shoulders square. But hey if that's not the case with you, great, means we have more in common than I had imagined.

 

Im unsure why a 4th Dan would want to transfer and they would surely know there stuff in their original style so other than to gain rank in another style the easy way i dont know why. What issues does he have with Shotokan that he wants to leave the style and not teach it?

Also, do you know if he would be able to join the TSD school as a 4th Dan. At such a high rank in the style the person should an expert in what their doing/teaching and while in general he may be very good, there are TSD specific elements that he might not have that are key to the style.

He will obviously have to learn all the forms - quite at lot up to 4th Dan. The only thing that he might find annoying he the little diffrences. Someone i train with someone who shifted over from TKD and slight diffrences such as we place our fists near the arm pit, not down by the waist, and we perform techniques like the soo do and backfist with the attacking hand by our head, not down by our waist. Also i believe that we (TSD) place more emphasis on hip movement/twists than Karate. These things are keys elements to the style, and a black belt should understand them, and a 4th dan should be expert in, so if Shotokan has slight diffrences on the foundation of the style he might be expect to train for a while before retaining the 4th Dan.

We actually have quite a deep stance. I dont know if that unique for TSD or how it originally was.

 

I agree, Homer. It'd be hard to retain a Master rank with a transfer. It's possible they could train you to be a 2nd or 3rd Dan. It depends.

 

Being A Master?

WHAT MAKES HIM A MASTER IS IT BECAUSE OF HIS RANK? A 4TH DAN IS NOT A MASTER. THEY MIGHT EARN THE TITLE BUT IF HE BELIEVES HE IS, HE HAS STOPPED LEARNING NEW STUFF. I HAVE BEEN READING THIS THREAD AND HAD TO JUMP IN. I AM A 4TH DAN IN TSD AND I HAD IT WHEN PEOPLE CALL ME MASTER. I WOULD LOVE TO TALK WITH YOUR "FRIEND" I, AM, HE ISN'T JUST IN IT FOR THE RANK. well, I HOPE NOT. IT SHOULD BE AN OK TRANSITION INTO THE STYLE. I HAVE ALSO TRAINED IN SHOTOKAN AND IT IS CLOSE. THERE ARE SUDDLE DIFFERENCES IN THE FORMS BUT HE SHOULD DO WELL. i JUST WANTED TO SAY ONE MORE THING THAT IS A 4TH OR 5TH DAN SHOULD STILL BE LEARNING. AND SHOULD CARRY THE MASTER TITLE LIGHTLY.

 

First off, shouting isn't nessecary!

With regards to "Master" rank, i believe you become "master" is many style from 4th Dan. However, i think you should be given the title of master. I believe thats how the master of our club gained his.

I think a 4th Dan Master should be better than a 'normal' 5th Dan due to the level of proficiency they should have, hence them being given the title of master.

 

When is one a master

I started this thread, only looking for some good advice for a friend of mine.

However, the topic seems to be taking a turn that I am very excited about and dear to. The new thread seems to be , when is one a "Master" and when should you go out into the cold, cruel world and open your very own dojang/dojo?

I say that this is a dear topic to me because, I (although ranked 4th Dan in TKD, 5th Dan hopefully next month) feel that I am a LONG way from mastering any aspect of TKD. Everyday, I continue to grow in knowledge and some days in skill. I don't feel that Master is a title that must be attatched to any Dan rank. Master is a title that one should be very care to use and I feel that people who insist on being called a Master should be continually reevaluate their abilities.

When should one go out and open their own studio; 4th, 5th, 6th Dan or whatever. That really depends one what the individual wants. Some people run out and start teaching at 1st degree (SOME EVEN BEFORE THAT!!), others continue to study under their teachers upto and past 6th degree. Just because one is 4th degree, they don't have to run out and start teaching.

BTW...I learned something new in tonight's class from a Red Belt!!

Submitted with the utmost respect.

 

Didn't mean to take the thread in a diffrent direction I guess i was trying to point out that even if you stay as a student and dont teach, 4th Dan is a high rank, and when tranfering to a new style, dispite how similar they may be, there will be diffrences such as forms, techniques, philosophies etc. I dont know if someone could remain a 4th Dan during the transfer with this in mind.

I think this is what i was trying to say in my last post. Being a 4th Dan in TKD are you officially reconised as master, dispite your personal opinions on whether are and should be addressed as such?

 

Officially, I have the title...personally, I still have so much to learn!

 

WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

 

Please stop shouting.