http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3626856.stm In the news this week there have been reports of 'terrorists'/rebels taking seige of a school in chechnya with several hundred children and teachers. The Russian army were called in to introduce negotiations and the whole 'mexican stand-off' situation. Yesterday it all came to a head with some 300 people dead, 600+ injured and some _STILL_ being held hostage. Considering that this 'systema' stuff is meant to be used by the russian spetznaz (special forces) and army, i was appalled at the primitiveness in how the situation was dealt with, and with the horrific amount of people hurt. How is it, that people who are meant to be one of the 'super power' nations of the world, can make a bad situation totally screwed up by not reacting in a correct or timely fashion, thus increasing the severity of the situation and exponentially increasing the number of casualties? Surely, if they were the 'elite' as so many systema guys (as they are so quick to inform us, they do all this tactical awareness training, gun-fu, hostage dealing etc) why was it performed so cack handed? Im sure my dead grandmother could've done a better job. :bang: :woo: :cry:
This may sound harsh but the Europeans, specially the Russians, Germans etc have had a history of not caring. Hostage situations usually turn into battles and many bystanders get killed in the meantime. That is a possible answer to your question, but what does systema have to do with it?
I'm pretty sure that it would have been handled differently here in the UK. But - wasn't the whole thing yesterday started by some of the kids trying to escape and setting off mines rather than JUST a botched military assault?
Wow, imagine using an incident like that to take a cheap shot...... "But - wasn't the whole thing yesterday started by some of the kids trying to escape and setting off mines rather than JUST a botched military assault?" Yes - it seems one of the women decided to blow herself up whilst standing in the middle of the kids. As other kids took the chance to escape, the Chech started shooting at them. What you you have advised in that situation? "Considering that this 'systema' stuff is meant to be used by the russian spetznaz (special forces) and army, This "systema stuff" is used by some units within the spets and not the army. At the moment it's mostly bodyguard units . "i was appalled at the primitiveness in how the situation was dealt with," People are shooting at fleeing kids. What do you do? "Im sure my dead grandmother could've done a better job." Nice. I guess if it had been in China kung fu would be useless. Oh hang on, China never won a war, so it must be......
The reason why I brought it up was because of the fact that every other sentence seems to relate systema to these kind of situations. If it wasn't kids, would it have been handled any differently? Why not try negotiating, release a prisoner for 50 hostages? See what happens etc? Ooh, thats too easy? I can think of several 'wars' that China fought (solely against another country) and won. And of course, kung fu wouldnt be any help in this situation, but the big difference is of course, no one claims it would. I find it interesting that systema is tenuously linked to _anything_ that'll try and gain it popularity, but then when something like this happens, they walk away from it going 'only body guards use it; we'd have done it differently; there were kids involved; 'they' started it'. I just feel that this is a good case to show exactly what some of these new age arts are: phoney .
I think what he was trying to say is that wars and armed conflicts have nothing to do with martial arts, most certainly this day and age. On the china-wars comment, China has also lost many wars where well known kung fu masters were the commanding officers and many of them have been killed in battle, does this make kung fu systems phoney?
"Why not try negotiating, release a prisoner for 50 hostages? See what happens etc?" You should really do your homework. They already had negotiated. Some hostages had been released and troops were moving in to remove the dead bodies had been lying around for a couple of days. The question also arises on how you neogitate with suicide bombers - this isn't your "standard" hostage sitaution. "I find it interesting that systema is tenuously linked to _anything_ that'll try and gain it popularity, but then when something like this happens, they walk away from it going 'only body guards use it;" Systema isn't tenuously linked to anything. The links are all very real. Misquoting me doens't really do much for your argument - I said it was mostly being taught to BG units at the moment " I just feel that this is a good case to show exactly what some of these new age arts are: phoney ." New age? I would have thought that was more the realm of the "internal arts". I'm happy for you to see how phoney it is - maybe you could hit me with one of your "killing" beng chuans and I'll respond. That is assuming your chi doesn't kill me of course. "And of course, kung fu wouldnt be any help in this situation, but the big difference is of course, no one claims it would." Kung fu wouldn't help in a battle?I thought it was invented by a general.
I think he means in a battle where guns are involved. Darn I should really stopped doing mediating duties...
Lol "I can think of several 'wars' that China fought (solely against another country) and won. And of course, kung fu wouldnt be any help in this situation, but the big difference is of course, no one claims it would." But aparently: "Due to the nature of Xing Yi, in that it was developed as a battlefield martial art, the main emphasis was not on the ability to fight unarmed, but rather the ability to fight with a multitude of common battlefield weapons." Of course, the development of guns changed a lot of things, the Boxer Rebellion showed that. How did CMA meet those changes? Mostly by becoming tools for health, exercise and a vehicle for maintaining cultural traditions that were under attack from westernization. In the meantime the Chinese, at least in Shanghai, seemd quite happy with Russian bodyguards: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020624-263046,00.html http://www.frommers.com/destinations/moreattract.cfm?a_id=25922 http://www.talesofoldchina.com/shanghai/law/t-viol.htm
Not to get into a big debate over this but frankly, I am kind of bored since the hurricane seems to have picked up over here and its already almost 7am and no sign of me being able to train any time soon. To the point: Your point is accurate and inaccurate all at the same time, what you say is correct for the arts that remained in China and those arts that were under the influence of the Chinese government only. Those arts that made it to the exterior of mainland China are still combat effective and have not become tools for health, etc.
That's largely true, certainly given the wushu stuff that came out of the mainland. However I still feel the CMA have to undergo a certain amount of adaptation to work outside of their natural setting. Saw the hurricane on the news last night - stay safe!
I agree, systems have changed over time, even though the principles have remained the same we can see that forms practiced today have varied somewhat from what was practiced years ago. Thanks, ill try and stay safe, hopefully it dies down and I can go train though, im going nuts here! :bang:
It's easy to sit here and criticize the end result, but I suspect it wouldn't have been any different had it happened in any other country. Bear in mind that these guys were terrorists armed to the teeth, not some 13 year old kids on a suicidal shooting spree. As for negotiations - how do you negotiate with someone whose demands are totally out of line ("release these n+1 terrorists") and no willingness to work towards a mutually feasible solution? Besides, if you give in to their demands you can count on some more hostage situations.
As a muslim, this hits me pretty hard. BBC is very very fair compared to CNN and FOX as well as canadian news agencies such as 'the edmonton journal' or the 'national post' In canada, this radio host kept saying 'DID YOU KNOW CHECHNYANS ARE MUSLIMS!" "EVERY WHERE ISLAM TOUCHS THERE IS TERRORISM!" every day muslims must deal with this.
You have to blame your mullas for not quickly condemning 'all' terrorist acts. How can you negotiate with terrorists? Give in once and they will be doing it all the time. In one newspaper report in todays paper [ in australia ] a captured terrorist said that they were going to kill everyone anyway so you [i'm referring to a post above] wants to negotiate with the terrorists, you have to be joking!
I must've been reading different newspapers than you. But anyways if there was that, in the Edmonton Journal, I think i speak for all of my friends when I say "That sucks.", but your not the only group thatgoes through that kind of crap. Although I'm not muslim I consider myself a very liberal person. Coincidence: I read your comment just after reading one of the most insulting quotes I've ever read in my life: "Islam is the religion where you send your son to die for your god. Christianity is where god sends his son to diefor you." or something to that effect. I was so disgusted I forgot who said it, and went on a rant for awhile.
let's not make irrelevant, pointless and untrue statements, eh? Part of the problem is that the anti-terrorist squad NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWED UP. Also, training is significantly worse than, say, that of the SAS. Hand-to-hand combat skills have little or nothing to do with how that seige went.
That was from the new-york times, when the TIMES were interviewing some christian missionaries that were working in Afganistan and iraq(ironically, these were AMERICAN evangelist christians) BTW, that radio hose was david rutherford from 630 ched
