Switching associations as a Black Belt

Hi Guys,

Thought I would just get some opinions on this subject. I'm graded as a 1st degree blackbelt in Hapkido with an organization. Also been certified by Dojonim Ji Han Jae (if that makes any difference).

Due to various reasons, proximity to classes, they run more Black Belt advanced classes and a host of other reasons I find myself looking at switching organizations.

Is there an accepted etiquette for this type of thing with regards to recognizing rank?

There will obviously be some differences in syllabus but the core techniques will obviously be the same.

Is it presumptuous of me to turn up for training in my Black Belt uniform? Do I try and find an old white belt?

Anyone got any suggestions or been in this situation?

 

Can you talk to the people who run it before you go to explain your position and ask what they think?

 

I'd turn up in tracksuit bottoms and t-shirt. Your skill will be evident no matter what you wear.
Explain your grade and experience and see what the instructor thinks.

I did that at a new TKD club recently and the instructor was kind enough to allow me to stay a 1st dan despite getting it over 13 years ago with another association.

 

"Is it presumptuous of me to turn up for training in my Black Belt uniform? Do I try and find an old white belt? "

Everyone loves a little respect and courtesy, heck some would say its part of our arts.

Out of respect and courtesy for another organization I would suggest telling them you are a Dan holder in said Org and at the same time offer to wear whatever belt they saw fit until you could learn the differnces and curriculum of your new Org.
If they are not impressed by this gesture they may be the wrong group to join. Most would be and most would do a fair assestment period and at worst keep you undere\ranked only as long as it took to be on even par withj the group. By the way if its all about the same they may as well just bring you in.
I do belive the approach is important though and sets a tone as does respectinh their procedures if such are already in place.

 

Having trained in many martial arts schools over the years and regularly training at different clubs on my travels the best approach that has worked well for me is to either call or talk to the instructor first. I am always very honest in my approach, letting them know of my intentions, my skills and what I am looking for. What I wear around my waist is of no concern to me as skill is quickly noticed if you know what you are doing.

 

I remember that being mentioned and is by far one of the best ideas I've heard in ages.
ALL clubs should do that IMHO. Put a particular belt to colour to one side specifically for it.
Orange or something (as in Enshin).
Cuts out all the crap and indicates to the other students that the new person in not some newb (which can save incidents on both sides! ).

 

Just a side-thought.

Personally I think the idea of associations and federations, unions and clubs is way-far over-blown. Fact is that the practice of a true Martial Art comes down to the relationship between the teacher and their student. Based on that relationship, if a student has gone about as far as he can go with a particular teacher, a teacher will show that person to the door with care and possibly a hand-off to a teacher who may have the ability to take the student to the next level. And if the student finds something that takes him in another direction, that the original teacher can't go....well no hard feelings, right? After all the report from Dr KIMM He-Young is that was the situation when both JI Han Jae and KIM Moo Woong left their tutelage under CHOI Yong Sul and SUH Bok Sub, yes?

Turning the coin over, I think its also incumbant on the accepting teacher to do so with grace. Way too much of that "oh, man....yer doin it all wrong..!!" these days. Growth is the key and what makes that happen is probably the right step. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Just show up and say "Hi, I've graded to X with association Y, but am happy to wear whatever coloured belt you think is appropriate".

 

Having graded to Black Belt in 3 styles now (starting from white each time), I wasn't worried about putting on a white belt again and feeling like a newb, but those other instances were when I changed styles. As this was the same style (Hapkido) and just with a different association, I wasnt sure of the protocol.

Anyway, I went down and chatted with the local instructor and he is more than happy for me to wear my Black Belt and just learn the differences in syllabus as I go.

Hopefully the National head of the organization will feel the same when I turn up for the monthly Black Belt sessions. In the past he has apparently done an impromptu "assessment" of two other guys from other associations that were Black Belts and awarded them a red belt or similar...according to the story they never went back lol.

Will let you know how it goes and thanks for your thoughts

 

Once again let me state that its about the nature of one's relationship with the teacher. In the traditional sense, a teacher indicating that a person revert to a lesser belt is simply a way of saying" I don't know you yet" or "lets start the get-acquainted process". Westerners generally wear their ego on their belt so anything done to their "belt" is taken very personally.
Just people being people.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Sure Bruce, but as most Black Belts do (or should) know, a Black Belt merely indicates that you now know the basics of the style and are ready to start your real training.

Surely a BB in one style of Hapkido knows the basics and merely needs to learn the different ways in which they teach (ie: kata, set sparing etc.) the core techniques should be the same, especially in this case as the two organizations were a direct spin-off from each other.

Plus is demoting someone really a good way to say "lets get to know each other?" It smells more of the "my organsiation has higher standards than the other one" so a BB in their system is only as good as a red belt in mine?? Surely it would be more appropriate to say, sure we will recognize your rank but you must learn our syllabus completely before advancing in rank...this of course does assume that the person involved does have some technical ability on par with a BB standard.

In my case, as I said, I have already put away my BB previously and started again from white 3 times now. Its not the colour of the belt I am concerned about but the level of intensity of the training I will get if I have to train with other white belts/lower grades.

My particular situation has pretty much been sorted out but I do believe you are way off base with the whole "westerners wear their ego on their belt"...its not just westerners that place importance on rank. How many Asian Masters wont even personally teach students that aren't graded to BB yet...I know of quite a few off hand.

 

Well.....maybe you are right. I can remember a lot of threads in the past where a dozen people would talk about what a Black Belt meant, and you'd get a dozen different POV. Personally I wish to hell that the Korean MA had never gone down that road in the first place. I mention them because traditionally they never had a ranking system. And the Japanese only had their system of licenses and certifications until the 20th Century. Just to show you how funny people can be, I had been checking around for a location where I could just go and bust-out as just one of the students instead of having to worry about managing a class. Its amazing how reluctant people become to have a person come train when they find out that person has more that the average background. All the same there is much to be said for being able to go somewhere and just be another uniform on the mat instead of having to be responsible for making things happen.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

True enough. Sometimes I get the chance to go to seminars or other schools (in uniform or not) and just "train"... it's really fun not having to worry about all the different levels of students or activities or working around student injuries, etc.

 

I went on Monday night and trained. It was great. Like Bruce and Thomas have said, this was literally the first time in years I have bee able to go and just train for the entire lesson...I'm paying for it today in aches but it still feels good.

 

It seems to me that so many black belts are overly concerned about wearing the bb in class when at a new school. Look, if you get along with everyone and not be a jerk then life will be great.

 

I have all certified black blacks, of any degree rank, from other arts or organizations wear a plain black belt with no insignia of any kind on it and our arts black uniform pants and top with no insignia of any kind on it.

For those transferring from arts which are similar in technique, they train the syllabus up to their previous certified black belt rank and test at each of our black belt ranks up to that rank. As they certify within our art, they wear our arts insignia on the belt and uniform. Time standards up to their previous certified rank are waived.

For those transferring from arts which are not compatible in technique, they train the syllabus up to 1st degree black belt and test in our art at that rank. Once certified in our art, they wear our arts insignia on the belt and uniform. Time standards up to 1st degree black belt are waived.

 

I don't necessarily think its about the color of the belt they wear or being an elitist jerk. I obviously cant speak for everyone but most black belts should be training at an intensity level much higher than lower grades should be or probably wanted to train at.

Even people with the genuine intention of joining the new school and becoming a part of it can get frustrated by only training with newbies to the martial arts. Being forced to primarily train with people who are learning the very simple basics like how to even throw a punch with co-ordinated footwork etc is completely counterproductive to someone that has been training for +20 years.

I understand every school is different but most schools I have trained at, after a general warm-up divide everyone into belt level groups that work together. How would you like the prospect of working primarily with white, yellow and green belts for the next 9 months?

 

Whoa....hold on for a second. I know what the genral theme of the thread is but I think that last post brought out an issue that is HUGE.

Lets just put to one side the ego-stroking, recognition and status that often goes along with having/wearing a BB. All well and good and I won't pretend that its not part of the picture. However, as was just pointed out----and which I believe passionately----the people who are wearing aBB, and, indeed, have achieved a certain level of rank are entitled to some levfel of training above and beyond the usual GUEP stuff. And I am not just talking about adding another goofy form and an extra round of sit-ups and push-ups to the warm-up.

In every other endeavor that people volunteer for, there is an ever-increasing level of challenge. This holds true if a person is into Boxing, or Wrestling, Golf, Basketball or what-have-you. What I have found in KMA, though, is that up to a particular point there is a whole bunch of new and interesting stuff and then, all at once, its a matter of hanging around extra years and doing teaching or managing the school for "the Big Guy". I say, "screw that". If a person represents themselves as some sort of "big name" in the KMA field, I suggest that person ought be able to structure a curriculum that keeps expanding the devotees skill set or pass the poor fella off to someone who can. There are certainly a lot of folks who can keep GUEP interested and impressed, but I don't think a guy hangs around for ten or 20 years to do the same 50 or so basics time and again. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce