I think Paul's clips are just fine. I have used systema's creative training methods for a while now in my own classes (although I'm not a systema practitioner). I can attest that it's a really good way to train. No, its not full out bone breaking sparring. But it doesn't need to be. Whats being completely ignored is that this was used by soldiers in life or death situations. It works. Its as simple as that.
Sorry state of affairs I find it sad that these days so many people seem to come onto forums such as this to hurl abuse at others or deride their martial art or technique. This is so contrary to the foundations of any martial arts and seems a shame as much development came from cross pollination of ideas originally. (look at Jujutsu, Akido, Kendo, Aikibujutsu and other samurai bushido based arts) I personally have been practising martial arts for 20 years and have obtained numerous black belts in various disciplines. I personally have found that cross training (the source of MMA/ freestyle etc) has allowed me to evolve into a better and more efficient fighter and person. I note with great sadness several verbal attacks on Paul Genge here saying that techniques dont work in reality, look sloppy etc. Now i live in NYC so i cant say from personal experience, but someone with the 6th Dan Ninjutsu and Police background he has should be fairly handy. If he has found answers and solutions in Systema then i would respect that, even if such techniques do not work for me. Furthermore he offers for anyone to come and test the viability of his techniques which is how the martial art of feudal Japan and China used to evolve. Also he has taken his art into a foreign environment of MMA and been successful. I must also mention that i have been to see numerous great martial artists and so often when they move or defend it is hard/ impossible to work out what they are doing and how. Especially when at full speed, this is why slow speed drills are beneficial. (also for an uki's health) I think it is almost arrogant to judge someone from a clip rather than feeling and experiencing their Chi. I think rather than deride as a teacher and student of martial arts i would recommend congratulating him and personally going along and testing him before i throw comments and words around. Talk is cheap.
Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince. Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you! Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.
Yor are out of line. This was a very solid post and your response is the sort of ill mannered, disrespectful, imature attitude that permiates this forum much too often.
Originally Posted by Sonshu Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince. Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you! Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style. ---------- Posted by Gojuman: Yor are out of line. This was a very solid post and your response is the sort of ill mannered, disrespectful, imature attitude that permiates this forum much too often. ---------- Ill mannered I have not been I asked for him to give some info on his 20 years mentioned earlier as it must be a impressive record as he has been training for well over 2/3rds of his life. I asked for the bio to be completeted thats all. Ok how do you measure Chi? A statment that was used was "Experiencing his Chi or feeling his Chi" how do you do that then? (most of the other points which he made were ok until this one). The bit about Taijitsu I said because it is true and people still doing Taijitsu have raised this as a point in the style, I did it for a number of years so again its experience talking. How do you measure Chi then, if your gonna cast stones? Also Out of line and immature I put my view across and can support it.
ummmm I thought PARTS sonshu's earlier posts were a little rough and bordered over the line ... but that last one isnt so bad .... 25 years old with this statement sorry that comment needs to be questioned ... and as for the sharp biting comment on chi that sonshu made ... some people dont like Chi and dont believe in it .... ... some people dont like or believe in Quantom Physics ... does that mean it doesnt exist ? Becouse frankly the more I learn about the worlds of the really really small the more I am starting to see the two things as the same force . But back on topic ... I still say Systema has it merits ... but that 17 second clip with one second of sparring does not constitute proof that a system works or that Paul trains with "aliveness ". The clip just shows a pretty solid left punch thrown from the outside straight into judo mans face . also note I never said Systema wasnt legic or usefull or what ever ....I just think you may need better examples if you want to prove something ... personaly I dont see why you should have to prove anything ...
Chi is meaningful to many people. I understand when someone says that they can feel someones "chi line" . It is a reference to their strength, balance and focus of their center. I don't think his comments were inferring that he has any magical chi sensability. What his post was all about was his distaste for the constant attacks on contributer's art forms on this MAP of ours. You stepped up and proved his point even further. Have you ever heard the ZEN tea cup story? It is a worthwhile read. I have no rite to tell you what to post, but I do have the rite to point out that I think your post was uncalled for.
Your entitled to your opinion but when using the term Chi why not keep it simple and say you find out how good someone is when you train with them. I for the record have had a play around with Systema and also Ninjitsu (ex student) so as said it is from experience my view comes from not guess work or based upon the video alone. Please do keep in mind I have played with a lot of arts to differing levels and dont post about hung'gar, hapkido or anything like that as I have never done it. I was not out of line just raising points.
Im glad to see youve made our new member very welcome. You are a man of modesty and courtosy, hwo can perorm mathematical tasks and use constructive critism. As far as Im concerned that sytema top me looks very intresting indeed, I perticualry enjoyed the seated defences. Any way enough already. Its not my fault I cant spelll I blam the schools!
errrr I'm happy your happy as your post does not make sence - yes I blame the schools. The Systmea will be close to your Taijitsu so it will look of interest.
Maybe Sonshu did come on a bit strong, maybe he didn't. C'mon boys and girls, let's get this thread back on track - it's loads more interesting that way. What I find interesting is that Paul beat the guy in stand up, regardless of the guy doing Vale Tudo for a year. Also by the sounds of it the judo guy wasn't too sucessful on the ground. Now why is this? I would like to suggest that there is something about how systema trains that allows it to hold up in a mma environment. Now as has already been pointed out, Systema doesn't train very much in an 'alive' manner, at least not from the clips we've seen - from my experience this is also true in other instructors. SO - why did it hold up? Why didn't it fold up against a fighter with 4 years (1 yr Vt and 3 yers judo) of 'alive' training? Possibly, because systema and 'alive' training arrive at the same point but from different routes. I believe that systema can be effective because of the way it trains: 1. Techniques are taught in such a way that the student uses the moves that suit them - rather than artificial techniques 2. Students are taught to respond creatively - this way they learn to fight in a non-predictive environment 3. Students are taught to relax, this is important in dealing with the stress of a situation and optimising rsponses I'm convinced that 'Alive' students will look at these 3 points and see it in their training. What is important are the simularities. We're getting too hooked on 'alive' training? We're not seeing other ways of getting the same result?
I think that one issue - shown by the 35 page post on "aliveness" - is definition of terms. Once you give as name to anything people are going to spend most of the time discussing definitions. As far as alivenes in Systema goes, I can only say that we don't choreograph and there are no set attacks (or defence come to that). We encourage people to be creative and you can't do that in a "non-alive" environment. Levels of speed and resistance vary but as far as I can see they do in everyone else's training too.
Nicely put Rob. I think you are right, it boils down to definitions. Maybe people (including me!) are using too specific a definition of 'aliveness'. I can see the logic in extending to Systema the idea of being alive.
Aliveness is to me just practical application. Can you and do you put it upon a competant resisting apponent, do you then also drill it with a degree of regularity. Thats it.
Here is an article on how presure testing fits into Systema. Our approach is different to other styles, but it addresses some of the questions that surround weither our training is alive. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
Sorry Paul the article sheds no more light than what common sence and decent trainning shows. To me the bit about being joint locked and holding it for as long as you can (on all 4 limbs) is a real danger though and asking for injuries that even Vlad could not cure.
I agree completely on that one . Holding joint locks as long as you can stand is not the same as stretching and conditioning it will cause damage . The Site is down but I read something about laying on the ground with a large group ( I think the article said 50 people) fighting around you or something . I was just wondering where you find 50 people in wild melee or even a large group . And What does having 5-6 people laying on you while your instructor slaps you around gonna due ? This is all sounds more like conditioning than pressure testing . I will happily apologize if I miss read the article before it died . I will be checking on it every once in a while . BackFistMonkey P.S. " Easy Mister Paul Genge has 20 years of martial arts training , has trained with profesional killers , and has spent MANY years in different arts . Which in My opinion only proves that Paul is a good fighter and it says nothing about Systema. and you act like three years of Judo and a year of sport match training is enough to challenge a Martial Artist with 20 years under his belt ... this I cant see as a valid point .That is like being surprised when an instructor schools a three year novice ... oh wait .. that is what happend .
Seminars I see it as both I've done the drill although I wasn't being slapped at the time I had about five guys one me! Now I'm only 5' 7" and weigh about 11 stone and a couple of the guys had to be about 15 stone, it was a lot of weight, the point was though not to escape or see how your "technique" did under pressure but to remain calm and work on correct breathing and staying relaxed by doing that you can get out but again escape doesn't have to be the goal. So it is pressure testing and conditioning you are being tested in an "uncomfortable" situation and conditioning yourself to remain relaxed You learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable Hope that's helpd a bit??
Any technical types out there. The site appears to be using too much bandwidth. What is this and how do I stop it doing it? Paul Genge
actually yes thank you :love: that helps alot actually . I wasnt trying to be an ass I was seriously confused and doubtfull as to WHERE you were going to find 50 people slugging it out in Canada ... and I hadnt thought of large Martial Art seminars... gee who'd have thunk it *blushes* :bang: Yes being smothered is scary ,good point . I was under the impression it was some sort of technique test .. which I thought was abserd ... I am sure there are ways to remove yourself from the bottom of such a pile but to train for it didnt make sense to me . Knowing they WERENT training for it but learning how to breathe under physical presure and mental pressure(fighting panic etc ) well that makes more sense . If the article explained that clearly I am sorry for not absorbing it I only read it once before the site went away . Thank you for your time Paul ... removing some of or all of the vids may help ,as may trimming some of them down to shorter lengths . Maybe shoot more clips and rotate them out (leaving a smaller number active on the site at one time) . I think you are just having a large volume of visitors clicking away at your site which there is not you can do about except give them less content to clicky . be well train hard BackFistMonkey
