I've read on a few websites, don't remember which, that catch wrestler's don't think that the guard and mount are necessary in order to place a successful submission. I tend to agree. I think once someone has been knocked down you can proceed to put a knee bar or if they're face down it would be easy to do a standing armbar or shoulder lock. I don't wrestle very much about catch or jujitsu subsmissions? Most of my opinion is based off of watching MMA, does anyone know if these submissions would work very well?
I always try to use the ind of stuff your thinking about when we practice clinch and takedown drills. One thing I have come to undertand is that though the idea of a standing submission is good, pulling it off is a little harder than as is practical at high speeds and impacts...for this reason, legs give a person their base and there for some ability to leverage and move in ways you just can't do smooshed on the ground under some guy\gal. That being said, most of what i think of as standing submissions, (headlocks, chokes, chickenwing armlocks, comealongs, etc...) are actually better for controling someone or getting them to the ground than actually getting them to give up the fight. Of course a choke is gonna do it from standing, but when somone can countrer a choke with a slam, you are getting the raw end of the deal. Another thing is that there just aren't many "standing " submissions. Chin Na has some, Aikido has some I think and even submission wrestling has a few. But most things work better on the ground...giveing leverage and taking away their ability to move strongly and quickly when pressed against the ground. I would think mostly types of chokes and headlocks...sort of pro-wrasslin' style. You can do a crucifix standing, but you get more leverage on their neck if you sit their ass down and push forward. You can do a straight outside armbar standing, but you can crank it harder if you just sit on their shoulder. My bottom line, theres no such thing as a standing submission, they're just another type of takedown to finish....okay, maybe a sharpshooter if I'm lucky and feeling too cool for jiu-jitsu Its kind of the opposite of the jiujitsu mantra "position before submission"...which is a solid concept, but there are other ways to do things. And another way to do it is to catch and lock a guy, and wrench them into a position for submission. In jiujitsu, guys are very good at moving themselves into a position to control and submit an opponent. They learn to move themselves around, thats why little guys can tool bigger guys...its about them moving into a control position. In submission wrestling\catch wrestling\pro-wrestling, you you learn to move the guy into a position for submission. Wrestling also has about a gazzillion different locks and holds and submissions from many different positions. They don't necessarily have to be in a control position to apply a crank, choke or hold. And now that I'm thinking about standing submissions, I'm gonna try for a stranglehold next week in grappling...... thats my windy opinion
Thats pretty funny. But there are standing submissions, like the guillotine, and sometimes a rear naked, duh!! Watch this fight, a PRIDE guy gets a standing submission...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7026687190272925082&q=ufc And I think it might be possible to get standing Kimura and Americana, but that would really tough to hit on even a mediocre grappler.
Catch wrestlers philosophy dictates that they like to be able to attack from every position- hence the great variety of footlocks that most practitioners seem to have. Fine for a pure submission tourny fight, but people are a little more reluctant to go for foot/leg locks in MMA because they're reluctant to give up the top position (as often happens when you attempt footlocks) dont like the idea of getting punched in the face (takes two hands to footlock someone- what do you think your opponent's going to do with his free hands?) or both. Im not saying that leglocks arent of value in MMA competitions- Im simply pointing out that you can see the reason why BJJ prefers to attain a dominant position prior to attempting a submission hold.
If they're on their backs it will be hard to hit someone with any power and they must be flexible to even make contact with their arms. If their face down it might be easy to kneel on them to and do some sort of shoulder lock or armbar. I was thinking of submissions where you are standing any your opponent is down. Not cases where both of you are standing.
I was referring to the same thing- trying to grab a hold of someone's foot in a MMA match while you're standing can be dangerous if they try to throw an upkick at you. A footlock from a standing position is also quite risky and low percentage- any submission you apply is best done when you use your bodyweight. This is why you see fighters pounce on a leg and put their weight on it- it makes it easier to control the limb and harder for the opponent to escape. By putting your weight on the leg, you take weight off the torso, which means your opponent can sit up and assume the top position easier- if you dont immediately catch him, you're going to catch a few shots to the face at least. Against some scrub you can throw a standing footlock, but if your opponent is relatively near your skill level, its a very unlikely submission.
Other standing submissions can be flying triangles and armbar...those are so sweet!http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8138893683141394468&q=flying+armbar :Angel:
I wasn't really thinking of using submissions without body weight. I was thinking of submissions, at least leg submissions, more like this http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-3/. This isn't the exact scenario I think we've been talking about but Pics 7-8 are the end result I was thinking of. Just thought it could also be done if your opponent, the uke, was on their back. Just move around upkicks. I don't know about upkicks, anytime I've been hit by them they felt more like pushes and were relatively easy to maneuver around. I know some guys can really put their heels into those upkicks but in general I think upkicks work more when the standing aggressor runs into the upkick. I still think standing-to-grounded submissions are underused.
Just for reference, the position you are talking about is called "up\down position". Upkicks aren't the only thing to worry about... though "deez nutz" get a little worried about taking an upkick to the groin. These types of submissions have a low success rate because of the freedom of movement they allow for the person on the ground. Reversals can happen quickly from this position...and a kneebar war on the ground or standing up is no fun. The amount of control you have standing is nowhere near as great as kneeling or sitting on an opponent. Those pictured on the website you linked are good, but much greater control can be had if the girl simply set herself down on the guys hips or lower back(depending on the way hes positioned) and have more control and strength in the submission. But, looking at that picture again, all the guy had to do was put his other foot on her butt and push her off and take pressure off his knee...the girl would end up face down with him coming up over her back. Why stand when you can sit.... I prefer kneeling to standing, and sitting to kneeling. You can acheive a few cool subs from these positions...mostly tooled up pro-wrasslin moves...reverse guillotine, crucifix, a few spinelocks, etc... But the reason these don't get used much is due to their low success percentage. But it does kind of send a message if you catch someone in one of these...it makes them look bad. But you're right , they are kind of ignored, mostly beacuse of the jiu-jitsu influence in most grappling. Its more risky than than most jiu-jitsu folks are comfortable with...hence, the underuse.
My only experience with wresteling is from italian -to the death-wresteling from a manual written in 1410, and the author of that manual seems to agree with the threadstarter (if I understand you correctly), in that it is better to be left standing after the opponent has dropped to the floor. The system I train differs in that you seek to dismember/break somthing on the opponent on his way down/on impact with the ground -so that you don't have to think about locks once he's downed
Ahh, ok Killbot thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of pretty much any up/down position cause I was actually thinking most of what I called standing submissions would work better if you kneeled on the opponent. EX: Doing a shoulder lock while you kneeled on someone on their back.
Pitfighter, what you are talking about is called "hooking on the fly" in catch wrestling... there are positional relationships used to do this... the main seperation from jiu jitsu is that you don't use the common positions with in the jiu jitsu hierarchy... you don't engage in holding the guy down then going for submission... because from the catch wrestlers point of view this gives the opponent an opportunity to attempt an escape... so you use the submission to hold the guy down or is the case of standing leg locks you drag the guy so he can't counter until it is too late for him... an important point that I think this thread also brings up is the illusion that many grapplers have that there is a ceiling about three feet over their head... this causes a mental limitation that sometimes makes guys stay in bad situations when all they have to do is stand up... take care, steve
I'd like to hear more about your system. How do you practice dismembering someone without actually breaking something?
BJJ theory of fighting, but seeing as Catch got mentioned, perhaps it's not the only one? Catch stresses control, not position. Theory being I can be mounted on someone and have no real control. It also stresses being able to attack from anywhere. Standing submissions won't work on an experienced grappler because they are too hard to control. There are a few that might get pulled off on occasion, but generally they are fairly easy to escape.
